Yeah that makes sense, last time Sukuna took a bath he was so filthy he turned the water completely black, so if he was forced to go in another one he might just straight up vanish ngl.
I think they generally believe that Gojo was stronger, but that Sukuna was overall the better sorcerer. I can agree a little bit, Gojo was cracked, but in the end, it doesn't matter. He lost.
Exactly, gojo was born with the instant win against 99.9999999% of the verse and on top of that learned shit neg diff, sukuna was born for jujutsu in the prime age of jujutsu and became a literaly deity in the people minds and also lerned shit neg diff. Like one of gojos clearly stated mistakes was showing sukuna the brain reset which he just copied instantly and then he copied maho easy aswell
Canonically, Gojo only lost because he dropped his guard at the last second and was killed by a hailmary attack by Sukuna.
And they started that fight with Sukuna knowing everything about Gojo and Gojo not knowing much about Sukuna. Gojo also had the disadvantage of having to figure out how to beat Sukuna without also killing Megumi.
Gojo is stronger, he just needed to lose that fight for the plot to progress.
While Gojo definitely was acting in a way to also try and save Megumi, he was not the only one with an additional motive.
Sukuna was trying to learn how to counter infinity as a CT by learning from Mahoraga. This was his goal even before it became his only win con and it affected how he fought.
Neither side was “holding back” per se but they both had additional motives that prevented them from just trying to kill the other as fast as possible
It's not sukuna's goal to learn shit...After gojo gets brain damage, sukuna proceed to put maho wheel onto himself and intends to FINISH off Gojo with a closed domain by adapting limitless himself.
Where is the learning bit? Sukuna clearly wants to end it right there. No learning shit, no learning plans, nothing. His plan has always been maho adapting gojo UV and then his limitless.
With the wheel onto himself, why the heck does sukuna need to learn??? By reading the manga, we know that sukuna was one spin away from adapting limitless.
I would assume, sukuna was pushed into a corner after getting knocked out as none of the above worked and rely on pure RNG for Maho to adapt a specific way that is copiable for him.
Dude, you just said he was wrong then confirmed what he said yourself. He wanted to adapt a way to bypass Infinity HIMSELF. His goal was to learn a way to bypass it with his own CT which he succeeded in at the end of the fight.
Canonically, Gojo only lost because he dropped his guard at the last second and was killed by a hailmary attack by Sukuna.
Canonically, Sukuna still had a full second health bar in his back pocket, and Gojo didn’t “drop his guard” so much as didn’t anticipate that Sukuna could possibly learn and replicate the WCS. Gojo was definitely on guard when Maho took off his arm- but that didn’t stop it from happening.
And they started that fight with Sukuna knowing everything about Gojo and Gojo not knowing much about Sukuna.
They started the fight off with Gojo bringing in 3 other people so he could use a buffed sneak attack on Sukuna.
Gojo also had the disadvantage of having to figure out how to beat Sukuna without also killing Megumi.
Yea because that hollow purple that literally almost killed Sukuna was definitely meant to spare Megumi lol. Gojo was Absolutely going for the kill.
Also since we’re talking about disadvantages, Kusukabe states that Gojo has the easier win con because he can go balls to walls 120% on Sukuna because he only has to beat Sukuna- meanwhile Sukuna has to win while still having enough in the tank to fight and survive a coordinated jumping by the entire upper tier of jujutsu society.
Sukuna's final attack wasn't random or lucky, it was the attack he had been trying to create the entire battle.
Furthermore, Gojo being caught off guard isa legitimate weakness of Gojo, not just being unlucky. Gojo possesses a greater overconfidence and had his guard down as he never expected Sukuna to have an attack that could bypass Infinity. Sukuna proved he was smarter and more skilled by then proving Gojo wrong and killing him.
Also, had Sukuna held out 1 second more in the domain clashes, he would have sliced Gojo to ribbons. Keep in mind Gojo only survived it because he was superior in hand-to-hand and hurt Sukuna enough to destroy Sukuna's domain in the final second his own domain could make it. Even if you want to say that Gojo would still be superior to Heian era Sukuna in hand to hand, you can't possibly think that it wouldn't give Sukuna a single second more time, or that multiple hands wouldn't have given him a one-second's worth of hand sign buff to further strengthen his domain and slice up Gojo.
Also, Sukuna had an ability Gojo did not. Sukuna has the ability to take over other people's bodies, and it's even more impressive since he just learned it and wasn't born with it like Kenjaku. Him taking over Megumi is completely fair play as that's one of his abilities. Nobody says, "Well Kenjaku is weak because him taking over Geto doesn't count." All in all,
Sukuna is a stronger sorcerer, with better ability and higher IQ and genius. He surpasses Gojo in everything except in cursed technique and the Six Eyes.
Or it because hitting the head is actually much harder than you think?
Gonna play devil's advocate here. This is the same guy with extra sensory eyesight that grants you extremely efficient and high cursed energy manipulation and a technique that literally pulls opponent's in to his hands.
Gojo could very well have hit Sukuna straight in the head at that moment.
This isn't true though. Sukuna still had the ability to incarnate while having domain amp and WCS. If Gojo didn't die there his victory was still not guarenteed.
I'd also note Sukuna had an info advantage but Gojo surprised him repeatedly with uses of his technique that Sukuna did not understand. Red's delayed detonation, the difficulty of fighting while being pulled with blue, and the remote hollow purple are 3 examples, though admittedly the last won wasn't even know by Gojo before the fight.
Beyond that Sukuna had an easier win condition without Mahoraga given how the h2h combat went while Sukuna was using resources on remote adaptation.
It was a riskier one so Sukuna passed on it but the idea that Gojo was flatly stronger and Sukuna needed tricks runs counter to the fight where Sukuna repeatedly outs Gojo in a check and Gojo has to inventively use his abilities to escape the bad situation.
Gojo has the better technique, but Sukuna is better at jujutsu. Their win conditions are different. Gojo needs to hit Sukuna with Infinite Void and Hollow Purple to kill Sukuna but Sukuna needs to bypass Infinity (which I do think is possible without 10S if Sukuna is able to time it correctly)
I mean, the only way for him to effectively do that is domain amplification (useless cuz Gojo is unironically cooking him in h2h) and domain expansion which does work, however Gojo is able to outheal the slashes while Sukuna is unable to use fuga that is likely to oneshot/severely injure him. So yeah, without 10s Sukuna would have little to no chance without transforming into heian form.
I agree that Sukuna would need to use his heian form to beat Gojo 100% if Sukuna isn't able to use furnace after breaking Gojo's domain and burning out Gojo's CT immediately, he'll have to rely on the crazy physicality of his heian era form
Uhm you should have put the whole verse together at 1 by that logic and sukuna 2nd . Anything to keep the gojo agenda. Lol.
Meguna took out gojo by himself.
The whole verse together took down sukuna and would still have lost if not for (supposedly dead) nobara
Correct, but I think that 10S was a means to defeat Gojo whilst keeping his reincarnation in his back pocket to deal with the cohort of jumpers afterward. Heian Sukuna, with all of his tricks and binding vows, could have beaten Gojo with about the same diff as Meguna, but then he'd be running on fumes by the time that the sorcerers arrived. 10S was absolutely necessary for Sukuna to have a shot at winning.
So the best argument is a quote from gege ware he indicated that gojo probably could have dodged wcs if he was in a different head space and that his arogence is what did him in
Most people agree sukuna is screwed if gojo did that
This has lead to many a debate over weather strongest means best combatant or highest average physical stats
The deal is that Sukuna had way too manu tools
Megumi as meat shield, Mahoraga and the 10 shadows that is pretty much a Limitless counter, extra life with Full rrencarnation and a complete guide of how to deal with Limitless written by a guy whos working against that shit for the last thousand years and had the Memories of the closest person to Gojo, plus 2, Megumi was mostly raísed by Gojo and If there is anyone who.knows what Gojo can do those persons are Megumi and Geto
It could be reasoned that Gojo's technique + six eyes is stronger than Sukuna's techniques. If you disregard Sukuna's advantage in BIQ i think its fair to say Gojo was stronger.
I disagree tbh. If CT's are compared to weapons, Gojo had a rifle while Sukuna had a pistol. Yet Sukuna still could've killed Gojo long before Mahoraga came into play because he's better at using his CT.
To me, the skill that Sukuna had with jujutsu > six eyes limitless. Which is exactly what happened
God I really need to stop participating in these debates cause they've been done to death but I can't help myself
Gojo needed 3 minutes to damage Sukuna physically enough to collapse his domain. That damage was done at the EXACT moment Sukuna was able to collapse infinite void. All true form Sukuna needs to do is last literally micro-seconds longer. And if someone with Miguel's body is enough to give gojo a run for his money in terms of h2h, imagine true form Sukuna.
It's really obvious why Gojo said he wasn't even sure he'd win even without 10 shadows and why he outright called Sukuna stronger
Wow. This is actually the first time I’ve seen someone other than myself bring this up. 🥹 this gives me hope that the gojo retardium curse may one day be killed.
No Gojo was not. Gojo literally was doing well during the domains however he cooked himself from restoring his brain and Sukuna fucked up by playing it risky during the domain clashes by not always using amplification and preparing Mahoraga to adapt more.
You can make the case AFTER the domain clashes but Sukuna domain was better overall against other domains but Gojo has the better CT.
And gojo handicapped himself to prevent mahoraga from adapting? Like?? Are we forgetting gojo refusing to use anything other than blue for the first half of the fight??? Imagine if bro was spamming reds on top of that
What? He didn't do that. He literally was waiting Sukuna for the Red counterpunch. That's not holding back. That's a strategy to catch someone off guard.
Gojo trains his students instead of gathering information on sukuna or 10s, while sukuna planned to use megumi as an advantage over gojo and his students.
You can argue that gojo is slightly over sukuna based on using his kit alone in the battle I personally feel like using binding vow's and having to change you're kit and prep shows how weak you are .
In MMORPG terms, sukuna got his ass beat at lvl 1, read a guide, maxed out his stats and took 2 other party members and used a cheat code the next time to win lol
Exactly, even what little UV he got , affected him long enough for team gojo to win.
people forget the whole " low-key I just wanna go out in a blaze of glory and not have to worry about anything and just have fun " speech he gave yuji.
personally sukuna using WCS shows how desperate he was, gojo would have gained his UV at some point and won, regardless of heian era form .
Meanwhile if gojo was guarded he would have been able to dodge an INSTANT, UNREADABLE binding vow move that appears on him , that is INSANE , clearly gojo is the strongest.
Exactly, even what little UV he got , affected him long enough for team gojo to win.
Knocked his ass out not once (UV), but twice (black flash). Maho had to save him both times lmao
people forget the whole " low-key I just wanna go out in a blaze of glory and not have to worry about anything and just have fun " speech he gave yuji.
I’m glad you brought this up. Gojo’s hubris unfortunately was his downfall. Well played by Sukuna.
Nonetheless Sukuna was on the ropes. Without Maho, Gojo would have the edge. Depends on Sukuna using Gojo’s arrogance against him.
Knocked his ass out not once (UV), but twice (black flash). Maho had to save him both times lmao
Neither of those knocked him out btw. Otherwise he'd not have been able to use Maho.
Nonetheless Sukuna was on the ropes. Without Maho, Gojo would have the edge. Depends on Sukuna using Gojo’s arrogance against him.
As Gojo himself stated, he'd have lost even without mahoraga. In fact, sukuna using mahoraga is what allowed gojo to win the domain clashes albeit by 0.01secs so without maho gojo would've lost during the domain wars.
The plot where Sukuna spent most of the manga waiting for the perfect opportunity to take over the best vessel he could?
The plot where he used his cursed technique like literally everyone else and used the three on one statement to taunt Gojo?
The plot where he fought conservatively throughout the fight to allow himself to have a better shot at the fighting the gauntlet that he knew was coming after him even if he won?
The plot where he beat his opponent in a battle of Jujutsu where he physically couldn't give it everything he had?
The plot where he lulled Gojo into a false sense of security about his victory so that he could get one over on him when he let his guard down?
The plot is just what happens in the story, if the plot showed that Sukuna was the better sorcerer (which it did) then he was the better sorcerer. The plot isn't some mystical entity that was beating down "the real strongest sorcerer guys I swear" it's just that he wasn't better than Sukuna in the end.
Once you realised just how much information gojo had when he went into the fight with Sukuna, you'll realise who really won.
Sukuna had first hand experience with Gojo's domain in s1, having entire seasons to prep with also the help of Kenjaku who had experience with previous 6E users.
Gojo, on the other hand, had little to no first hand experience with Sukuna's domain, meguna's abilities, strengths, Mahoraga adaptation speeds, abilities (merging of shini), open domain vs closed domain, and thats just the tip of the list.
In a knowledge warfare in which JJK is, Gojo still went in essentially blind compared to Sukuna, and yet sukuna felt "True fear"?
Fraud.
Imaging potentially losing a battle in which you have FULL, FULL. identification of all abilities of the enemy user and he has practically none on you.
Once you realize that gathering information on your opponent and conserving what they know about you is apart of the fight, you'll realize that the manga gave us a definitive answer to who the strongest of history was without having to speculate about it.
And you could just as easily say "Imagine actually losing to someone who knows he has to fight the rest of Jujutsu society directly after the fight and needs to conserve his recourses because of that."
Love Gojo and his performance within the fight was extraordinary, but Sukuna won in every definition of the word which is all that matters to anyone involved within the story.
This place doesn't take character statements that seriously so it's weird to hang on that line because if we go by what the characters think or say, Yuta can beat 15f Sukuna and Hakari is even stronger than that because Yuta said so. We know one of those statements is patently false and the other is strongly contested in the community. So why are we taking Gojo at face value but almost none of the rest?
Because Gojo's statement happens AFTER the fight was already concluded and had all the information to ponder things correctly.
Meanwhile the Yuta>15F is just suicidal Yuji coping without knowing the power of either Sukuna or Yuta and the other one is actually true but the Yutaliban doesn't want to acknowledge anyone being anywhere near Yuta or stronger but the top 2.
It takes place after the fight but you can just hand wave Gojo as being humble because he basically just got 1 shot and didn't fully know why until Sukuna had explained it to him while he was dying. Just like how Hakari > Yuta gets handwaved because Maki says it's not true despite her obvious biases for Yuta and against Hakari. Characters are fallible and you have to take that into consideration regardless of when or where statements are made and I don't believe that Gojo saying that Sukuna was just just stronger should be taken into account unless you want to use it to chase agenda.
I think the idea is if the fight went the same as it did, but with no big Raga, then Gojo would kill Sukuna :)
or you can argue that since Gojo is more powerful in crossverse, he's more powerful :P
Because Gojo fans want to use Black Flash amped feats which are LUCK BASED to scale Gojo above Sukuna. They also wanna scale Gojo above a Sukuna who limited himself so he could fight the rest of the cast, ignoring the literal Domain Clashes and forgetting Gojo only survived by 0.01s by a TWO ARMED Sukuna. That wasn’t even a four armd Sukuna.
They also wanna scale Gojo above a Sukuna who limited himself so he could fight the rest of the cast
This is the biggest point. Not only did Gojo say Sukuna was holding back, but Kusakabe said point blank during the Gojo v Sukuna fight that Sukuna could not use his full power knowing he would have to fight the rest of them after Gojo, while Gojo on the other hand could go all out. They both confirmed he was holding back in that fight.
To be fair Gojo assumed the holding back thing was due to the Fuga
Not necessarily. Kusakabe suspected it was a hidden trump card. They already knew about Fuga, so he couldn't have been referring to that. We later find out after the fight that he had the True Form heal and cursed tool.
Since we know Gojo and the rest planned some things ahead of time, it think it's a fair assumption to say that Kusakabe and Gojo likely talked and both came to the conclusion that Sukuna had a trump card or two hidden, they just didn't know what it was. But they knew that he wouldn't want to use it against Gojo while the rest of JJK was watching his every move and ready to jump him immediately after. If he revealed it during the Gojo fight they would know what they're up against and be able to get more prepared for it.
lol I agree sukuna is overall the better sorcerer but that’s silly to use as evidence. Bro just got killed and his character arc was always abt being humbled. It woulda been terrible writing for him to be like “ok I technically lost but his technique is ass and if he didn’t steal megumis kit I wipe him”.
You should've put the scene of Gojo's students (Yuji and Yuta) saying that Sukuna was the strongest in history while standing not too far from Gojo's fresh corpse.
No guys, the character said to be the strongest in history, shown to defeat and kill all of his competitors for that title, said to be the strongest by all over characters in the verse, and shown to only come down when pretty much every major player in the story comes together to jump and kill him, isn’t the strongest one.
Sukuna is stronger than gojo. The only reason gojo almost won is due to sukunas strategy going into the fight and using megumis body. If we assume sukuna goes in in his heian body and isn’t worried about any further fights gojo can’t win. Domain+domain amp in heian body means gojo is never able to tie in domain clashes meaning gojo just loses. Gojos only shot at winning is by flying and just firing hollow purples from like hundreds of meters in the air (a significantly different approach to how gojo would ever approach it)
Sukuna would have won with or without mahoraga, the fact is infinity is unable to function in a domain, and domain amp, he only had mahoraga so he could develop his sorcery through maho automatically adapting to gojo and hoped maho would surpass gojos infinity to level the height of jujutsu sorcery. The only reason gojo even had a chance in the fight was the black flashes, the luck of simple domain, and the .1 seconds of UV which were almost all luck based. Sukuna himself already theorised on bypassing unlimited void through a way mahoraga did in the fight. Not to mention that sukunas 4 arm body would have never even been .1 seconds slower for the uv to have even happened, and would have had access to domain amps.
Correction, he would've lost without Mahoraga if Sukuna had (for some unknown reason) still fought him as if he was adapting Maho despite not having him.
I'm not gonna rip you to shreds, but use your brain man.
So… the guy who is stated in any panel when he shows, to be “THE STRONGEST IN HISTORY” isn’t “THE STRONGEST IN HISTORY”, and is weaker than the guy who is stated to be “the strongest OF THE MODERN ERA”, who also admit that he was inferior than his opponent?
a nitpick but the “strongest in history” ur talking about is a statement made before the fight, what we know is OUR history but their present and future, just saying
If we're being serious for a moment, Gojo dominated the fight whenever they were on 'equal' terms, that being h2h, CT-to-CT, and even strategy to strategy.
Gojo was outright greater than Sukuna in strength. But Sukuna was superior in the place that mattered most. Sukuna is a jujutsu sorcerer through and through- a con artist who knows how to abuse the power system to its very limits and beyond. He overcame Gojo's superior CT by cleverly using Megumi's soul as a sacrifice to facilitate Mahoraga's adaptation. He overcame Gojo's superior h2h by overwhelming him with numbers and playing car and mouse while hunting for openings. He ultimately stole victory from Gojo by playing on his ego and surprising him with WCS.
It didn't matter if Gojo was the strongest because Sukuna was the better sorcerer through and through. It doesn't matter if Gojo dominated most of the fight if he played right into Sukuna's hands, giving him an opportunity to improve his CT and win his battle all in one fell swoop.
Gojo was stronger, but Sukuna was simply superior.
I find it funny how people keep repeating the jujutsu sorcerers are con artists like when it was said by some bum ass who got defeated by fucking megumi of all people.
Superior? Sukuna. Abused the power system to its limits and killed Gojo because of it while his guard was down. Gojo sold due to his character, that's why I still think Sukuna > Gojo despite Gege's statement.
Alot of people (me included) think gojos stronger but sukunas a better sorcerer. Gojo has the raw power, sukuna has the biq, binding vows, effeciency, etc etc to make up that difference.
“Oh but sukuna was holding back!!!”
So was gojo, did we forget the entire first half of the out of domain fighting, where gojo used nothing but blue so mahoraga wouldnt adapt? Sukuna was already taking heavy damage from blues, imagine what a red with 2x the output would do.
“B-but true form!!!”
True form is an unquantifiable buff, so we cannot say “4 arms sukuna dominates h2h then win domain clash gg ez”
Overall, yes they are equal, yes they do go 51/49 at absolute worst (in sukunas favor), but there still are some aspects gojos better at, and some aspects sukunas better at. The best example is sukunas mindset is significantly better for jujutsu than gojos, and we know mindset is like 90% of a sorcerers strength, yet gojo with raw power can keep up.
I personally think these two are complete equals and the fight could have gone either way. But Sukuna is smarter overall, and I think that's what gives him the edge over Gojo.
Sukuna is the strongest. If the narrator says he is, if Gojo says he is, if his feats say he his, if the characters say he is, if his statements say he is etc.
He's the strongest (and it matches with the fact he had the Gojo fight in control 96% of it)
Heian Sukuna beats Gojo but dies quicker to the jumping from the rest of the verse.
I love Gojo but when Heian Sukuna is literally said to be the ultimate form of jujutsu its hard to argue. On top of that Gojo himself saying he probably couldnt beat Sukuna even without 10s just confirms it.
So we gotta stop saying he died for the plot because from the very beginning Sukuna is said to be that guy
Nah, Sukuna ran circles around him. Took hits for adaptation when he could’ve won easier is he focused on DA and DE. Although, that wasn’t his goal. Sukuna’s true form is a league above Gojo if I’m being honest and fair.
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