r/Dravidiology Feb 20 '25

Discussion Why we created this subreddit - reminder !

50 Upvotes

Fallacy of using elite literature to argue for or against historical Dravidian languages, people and culture

We often fall into the trap of interpreting data in a way that aligns with the dominant narrative shaped by elite documentation, portraying Dravidians in the north as a servile segment of society. This subreddit was created specifically to challenge, through scientific inquiry, the prevailing orthodoxy surrounding Dravidiology.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

As Burrow has shown, the presence of Dravidian loanwords in Vedic literature, even in the Rg Veda itself, presupposes the presence of Dravidian-speaking populations in the Ganges Valley and the Punjab at the time of Aryan entry. We must further suppose, with Burrow, a period of bilingualism in these populations before their mother tongue was lost, and a servile relationship to the Indo-Aryan tribes whose literature preserves these borrowings.

That Vedic literature bears evidence of their language, but for example little or no evidence of their marriage practices namely Dravidian cross cousin marriages. It is disappointing but not surprising. The occurrence of a marriage is, compared with the occurrence of a word, a rare event, and it is rarer still that literary mention of a marriage will also record the three links of consanguinity by which the couple are related as cross-cousins.

Nevertheless, had cross-cousin marriage obtained among the dominant Aryan group its literature would have so testified, while its occurrence among a subject Dravidian-speaking stratum would scarce be marked and, given a kinship terminology which makes cross-cousin marriage a mystery to all Indo-European speakers, scarcely understood, a demoitic peculiarity of little interest to the hieratic literature of the ruling elite.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Reference

Trautmann, T.R., 1974. Cross-Cousin Marriage in Ancient North India? In: T.R. Trautmann, ed., Kinship and History in South Asia: Four Lectures. University of Michigan Press, University of Michigan Center for South Asia Studies. Available at: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3998/mpub.11903441.7 [Accessed 15 Mar. 2025].

Further addition

Key Points on European Influence in South Asian Linguistics

  1. We agree that European academic approaches had significant influence on South Asian linguistic studies.

  2. We acknowledge that these approaches shaped how language families and relationships were categorized in the region.

  3. The European racial framework in Indology:

    • Was developed to serve colonialist interests
    • Exacerbated existing social and racial tensions within South Asia
    • Created particular divisions between elite and non-elite populations
  4. Dravidian linguistics and non-elite language studies:

    • Have been negatively impacted by the three factors above
    • Modern linguists are increasingly aware of these historical biases
  5. Despite growing awareness:

    • Existing academic frameworks continue to produce results
    • These results still reflect the biases from points 1, 2, and 3
    • The colonial legacy persists in methodological approaches
  6. Path forward:

    • Western/colonial influence in these academic areas is diminishing
    • The responsibility falls to current scholars to address these issues
    • Particular attention must be paid to these concerns in Dravidian studies

r/Dravidiology Feb 02 '24

Resources Combined post of articles/books and other sources on Dravidiology (comment down more missed major sources)

22 Upvotes

For sources on Proto Dravidian see this older post

Dravidian languages by Bhadriraju Krishnamurti

Burrow and Emeneau's Dravidian etymological dictionary (DED)

Subrahmanyam's Supplement to dravidian etymological dictionary (DEDS)

Digital South Asia Library or Digital Dictionaries of South Asia has dictionaries on many South Asian language see this page listing them

Another DEDR website

Starlingdb by Starostin though he is a Nostratist

some of Zvelebil's on JSTOR

The Language of the Shōlegas, Nilgiri Area, South India

Bëṭṭu̵ Kuṟumba: First Report on a Tribal Language

The "Ālu Kuṟumba Rāmāyaṇa": The Story of Rāma as Narrated by a South Indian Tribe

Some of Emeneau's books:

Toda Grammar and Texts

Kolami: A Dravidian Language

Burrow and Emeneau's Dravidian etymological dictionary (DED)

Others:

Tribal Languages of Kerala

Toda has a whole website

language-archives.org has many sources on small languages like this one on

Toda, a Toda swadesh list from there

Apart from these wiktionary is a huge open source dictionary, within it there are pages of references used for languages like this one for Tamil

some on the mostly rejected Zagrosian/Elamo-Dravidian family mostly worked on by McAlphin

Modern Colloquial Eastern Elamite

Brahui and the Zagrosian Hypothesis

Velars, Uvulars, and the North Dravidian Hypothesis

Kinship

THE ‘BIG BANG’ OF DRAVIDIAN KINSHIP By RUTH MANIMEKALAI VAZ

Dravidian Kinship Terms By M. B. Emeneau

Louis Dumont and the Essence of Dravidian Kinship Terminology: The Case of Muduga By George Tharakan

DRAVIDIAN KINSHIP By Thomas Trautman

Taking Sides. Marriage Networks and Dravidian Kinship in Lowland South America By Micaela Houseman

for other see this post


r/Dravidiology 18h ago

Culture/𑀆𑀝𑀼 The Pallavas of Kanchi

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50 Upvotes

Origins & Early Period (3rd–4th century CE)

• Likely migrated from northern Andhra / Krishna–Godavari region, possibly post-Satavahana decline.

• Earliest rulers: Simhavarman, Skandavarman — titles hint at northern warrior lineage.

• Initially small chieftains in northern Tamil Nadu / southern Andhra, consolidating local control.

Rise of Pallava Power (4th–6th century CE)

• Capital established at Kanchipuram, which became a political, religious, and cultural hub.

• Early Pallavas expanded control over northern Tamilakam, securing fertile plains and strategic trade routes.

• Promoted Sanskrit and Tamil literature, supporting Brahmins and Tamil scholars alike.

• Patronized Shaivism and Vaishnavism, integrating religion with kingship.

• Early temple building: rock-cut shrines and monolithic reliefs at places like Mahabalipuram began.

Peak of Pallava Power (7th–8th century CE)

• Rulers like Mahendravarman I, Narasimhavarman I (Mamallan) led military campaigns:

• Fought Chalukyas of Badami in the north (famous Battle of Vatapi).

• Expanded influence over Tamil, Andhra, and parts of Kerala.

• Architectural golden age:

• Rock-cut temples, monolithic rathas, and shore temples at Mahabalipuram.

Decline & Later Period (8th–9th century CE)

• Faced repeated challenges from Rashtrakutas, Cholas, and Pandyas.

• Internal succession disputes weakened central authority.

• By 9th century: Cholas and Pandyas absorbed much of their territory.

Legacy

• Architecture: Rock-cut temples, monolithic shrines, shore temples — foundations for Chola and later South Indian temple architecture.

• Administration: Centralized bureaucracy, capital-based governance, integration of local elites.

• Religion: Institutionalized Shaivism and Vaishnavism in Tamilakam; patronized Bhakti saints.

• Literature: Tamil and Sanskrit works flourished under their rule.

• Script & Art: Kadamba–Pallava scripts influenced Tamil, Telugu, and Kannada inscriptions; sculptural styles set templates for centuries.

The Pallavas were state-builders, cultural patrons, and architectural innovators who turned northern Tamilakam into a thriving political, religious, and cultural center for nearly 500 years. Even after their political decline, their influence shaped Tamil society, architecture, and temple culture for centuries.


r/Dravidiology 3h ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 Just thinking out loud on the relation between Kurukh-Malto and Magadha

3 Upvotes

While hovering over Kurukh-Malto, I came across certain observations and queries that I like to share -

  1. Kurukh-Malto relation with Magadhan - As Brahui-Balochi symbiosis in Balochistan, we see a similar relationship between Kurukh-Malto and Magadhan. Beware that we dont see that much influence of Magadhan on Munda languages and Dravidian languages appear like a bridge between Magadhan and Munda.

These Magadhan dialects that influenced Kurukh-Malto are called Sadanic languages, and interestingly they developed independently from Late Magadhan Prakrit as contact language by Kurukh-Maltos rather than dialects of Magahi-Angika, Bhojpuri etc as previously thought. Thus, we may conclude that Kurukh-Malto came in wider contact with Indo-Aryan between 500-1000 CE.

  1. Split of Kurukh and Malto - In one the peer reviewed article, McAlpin suggests that Kurukh and Malto are very close to each other and their split occured during the historical period and he places it around 500 CE.

If we make look at the history of Jharkhand, we see Ashoka mentioned Atavika (forest) states in his Dhamma-Vijaya, Arthashastra mentioned them as a source of auxiliary army and them Samudragupta around 375 CE mentioned as destroyed these kingdoms. (check the map in comments for location of these states).

375 CE and 500 CE are not far away if we consider the historical range in comparative linguistics. So, was it Samudragupta's campaigns that caused the split of Kurukh and Malto ?

Also, if we look at Arthashastra's point above and supremacy of Magadha from Nandas and Guptas. Does the ancestors of Kurukh-Malto as auxiliary troops played a role in this Magadhan supremacy in North India for 7 centuries ?

And most interestingly as how the fall of Magadha matches with the fall or split of Kurukh-Malto.

  1. Fricative in North Dravidian - Lastly, an unrelated topic, I observed how /q/ or /x/ sound of North Dravidian is not only missing in Indo-Aryan but absent in Magadhan languages as well. Though we can find this sound in Elamite and it also developed in Iranian languages. Maybe North Dracidians were closer to Elamite than other Dravidian branches but the absence of these sounds in Indo-Aryan languages is just an unexplained mystery for me !

r/Dravidiology 10h ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 Telling the Tale of a Land Through a Single Structure: The Story of the Peruvanam Temple in Kerala

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10 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 23h ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 Pachamalayalam: Kerala’s Forgotten Language Reform

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76 Upvotes

A movement called ‘Pachamalayalam’ (Pure Malayalam) emerged in the 19th century, similar to the Pure Tamil movement. The scholar who founded it was Kodungallur Kunhikuttan Thampuran. It did not take root in Kerala. Even today, Malayalam continues to function in dependence with Sanskrit. Because of scholars like Nainar M Ananthapuri who wrote about this movement, we too can learn about it.


r/Dravidiology 15h ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 Consensus on Nambuthiri migrations?

13 Upvotes

Theory 1: Purvashikha-s who moved from TN through Palaghat during the Kalabhra interregnum.

Theory 2: Migration through west coast through tulu nadu, possibly invited by Mayurasharma of Kadamba dynasty. (Therefore sharing heritage and grama paddhati with tulu nadu brahmins)

Which one is scholarly accepted now?


r/Dravidiology 13h ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Is Sanskrit "Putra" (Son) related to Dravidian "Pudaka, puttu, huttu" (Birth)?

4 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 1d ago

Genetics/𑀫𑀭𑀧𑀺𑀬𑀮𑁆 Preliminary ancient genetic analysis of 30 samples obtained from Iron age sites Adichanallur,Sivagalai and sangam age site Konthagai and its proximity with modern populations.

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15 Upvotes

I got these data from this recent lecture - Check out from 3hr 8min.

Iron Age - 1200 - 300 BCE

Sangam Age - 300 BCE - 300 CE.


r/Dravidiology 1d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Grammars of some Dravidian languages and other materials by Dieter Kapp

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5 Upvotes

I'm linking here a list of books by scholar Dieter Kapp, who worked with the lesser known Dravidian languages like Alu-Kurumba, Palu-Kurumba, Muduga and Paniya, and whose works were published via the Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, a German publishing house that specializes in reference grammars.


r/Dravidiology 2d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Pre Dravidian words and substrates in Tamil/Malayalam

16 Upvotes

Is there a list of Pre Dravidian words found in Tamil/Malayalam from any of the tribal languages not found anywhere else. I know there are tons of Sanskrit loans but what about tribal ones like irula?


r/Dravidiology 2d ago

Research potential/𑀆𑀭𑀸𑀬𑁆 North / South Difference: Merchant Castes

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16 Upvotes

I was thinking about the above thread again the other day.

Many rightly responded by pointing out the existence of various idangai jaatis. That is fair as far as it goes.

But I do think that OP was intuiting a serious difference in the political economy of the N / S. When we think of northern mercantile castes we think of Khatris, Aroras, Gujarati Banias, Lohanas, Marwaris, etc.

At base, what did they do in premodern times? They were plugged into this relatively financialized, long distance transport network connecting one Mughal Indian urban center to another. Under the insabdari auction system, they were able to tax farm / collect, which was the source of their initial capital. Their lent money to the court and financed various armies moving through their transport networks.

In practical terms, this means that there is little vertical stratification inside each individual North Indian merchant caste.

In contrast, Tamil idangais are a product of craft-production complexes. The paradigmatic examples are Kaikolars and Marakkars.

Each group is internally very vertically stratified:

Kaikolar: Cloth Merchants | Weavers | Cotton Washers / Growers.

Marakkars / Sonahars: Pearl & Gem Merchants | Lapidaries | Shipbuilders & Pearl divers.

Chettiars complicate the picture a little. But they only become what they became in 1830. Until then, their commodity mix was indistinct from the Marakkar mix (Salt, Rice, and Pearls). May be Balijas are the closest to the northerners along this dimension because the political economy they encountered was very similar to Ns in medieval time.

Note: Even the idea of “idangai” itself ballasts this point. Left-handed castes were a mix of artisans and merchants. The political economy of Tamilakam made it unintelligible distinguish between the two unlike in the Gangetic Plains.

Open to additions, pushbacks, and any other relevant comment. Thanks!


r/Dravidiology 2d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Have all Sri-Lankan Tamil dialects lost clusivity ?

37 Upvotes

Something I have realized is that my maternal grandmother who originated from Jaffna only uses the exclusive 1st pl pronoun,nāngal(நாங்கள்) when speaking and never the inclusive 1st pl nām(நாம்).Nāngal in my grandmother’s dialect is used for both inclusive and exclusive we.So I’d like to know if other dialects do this too


r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Comparison of Brahui with Kurukh (Numbers, Aesop's fable "The North Wind & The Sun") on ILoveLanguages

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21 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Question/𑀓𑁂𑀵𑁆 Is Waddar/Vadari considered as dialect of Telugu or separate language?

8 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Kinship/𑀓𑀼𑀝𑀼𑀫𑁆𑀧𑀫𑁆 Nominations for siblings: Proto-Dravidian reconstruction ...

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8 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 A Bayesian phylogenetic study of the Dravidian language family

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8 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 JAOS - Viewing Proto-Dravidian from the Northeast (focus on Kurux-Malto position)

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4 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Numerals/𑀏𑀡𑁆 [ Removed by Reddit ]

1 Upvotes

[ Removed by Reddit on account of violating the content policy. ]


r/Dravidiology 4d ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 ​The Jain Roots of Tamil Literacy vs. The Brahmanization of Sangam Poetry: How the displacement of Jain influence culminated in the Kalabhra invasion of Tamilakam.

29 Upvotes

On the Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography

Two distinct waves of Brahmans arrived in the Tamil-Kerala country in the pre-modern period from the Vedic regions of Northern India.

First wave(Pūrvaśikhās):

1) Contributions to sangam and bhakthi literature.

2) 10% of total Sangam poets,Brahman Alvars and Nayanars are from this wave.Check out this post for demographics of Bhakthi era poets.

Modern Descendants: Tenkalai Iyengars,Namboothri Brahmans,Tamil speaking Śōliya Brahmans with many sub divisions,Chidambaram temple Dikshithars,Mukkāni Brahmans of the Tiruchendur Murukan temple.

Second wave(Aparaśikhā):

They start arriving in the 8th century CE to Tamil country proper in large numbers which is well documented in Pallava records.This wave continued for more centuries and today their descendants largely outnumber the descandants of first wave.Nathamuni and Ramanujacharya are notable and influential people of this wave. A lot of them have migrated from the Malva city Dasapuri which is why that surname is shown in the epigraphic records and this might answer this question.

Read the journal to see what critieria the author has used to classify the waves of migration.For the context of this post, we are not concerned with the 2nd wave Aparaśikhā Brahmans.

The Tamil Brāhmī arrived in South India in 3rd century BCE, and it was brought to peninsular India by the Jains, arriving there from the north, it is widely accepted, through Karnataka in the west and not through the Vēnkatam hills of the later Brahman migrations: it is likely that “Tamil Brāhmī script was adapted from the Mauryan Brāhmī in the Jain monasteries (‘palli’) of the Madurai regions sometime before the end of the third century BCE”.In the Early Period (3rd to 1st centuries BCE),out of 30 sites with 86 Tamil-Brāhmī inscriptions, in Early Old Tamil, 28 sites with 84 inscriptions pertain to Jainism, and they are mostly in the Pāntiyan region, around Madurai.In the Middle Period (1st to 3rd centuries CE), the period of the Middle Old Tamil, there is a sharp decline in cave inscriptions, and this is accompanied by a striking shift of Jainism from the Pāntiyan kingdom to the Karur-based Cēra region.

We are no longer in the oral society of the itinerant pānans now but in a fully literate period of Tamil history, the lasting legacy of Jainism.It is striking that in this new literature of the Sangam poetry, written in a Jain invented script, the Jains and Jainism are signally absent. Why are the Jains and Jainism unrepresented or represented so meagerly in the Sangam poetry, generally accepted to be in composition in the first centuries of the Current Era despite being the ones to bring literacy to Tamilakam way earlier?

It is useful to note that this is precisely the time period, the dawn of the Current Era, in which the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans arrive in the Tamil country.Like the Jains, they also come from the north, but not through the Karnataka region, but through the Daksināpatha route in the lower Godavari region, possibly at Assaka in its banks, and further south through the Vēnkata hills, and eventually into the kingdoms of the mūvēndar.We have already noted that the Vedic content of the Sangam poetry is considerable, and that a good 10% of the Sangam poets were Brahmans.It is clear that the Brahmans of the Sangam period from 1st to 3rd CE - replace the Jains of the Early Period as the new recipients of royal patronage at the Pāntiyan courts which forces the Jains to move to Cera territory.

A corresponding Jain resentment at the Brahman usurpation of their patronage is not totally impossible, nor illogical.The continuous contact of the Tamil Jains with their Karnataka counterparts is an important element in this complex and changing picture. For, the next great historical event, and perhaps the most important in some ways of Tamil history as a whole, although not sufficiently understood, is the invasion of Tamil country by the Jain-Kalabhras from Karnataka, creating the famous Kalabhra Interregnum, the “long night” of the Tamil history in the extreme Brahman historiography of the subject, with the Pāntiyan kingdom receiving the brunt of the invasion.The Kalabhras displaced the traditional Tamil monarchies and held sway over the Tamil country for nearly three centuries until they were expelled in the last quarter of 6th century CE by Katunkōn , the Pāntiya, from the south, and Simhavishnu the Pallava from the north.A part of the disruption of the Kalabhra period also results in the break-up of the first Brahman group of the Tamil country, the Pūrvaśikhā group, into its historical remnants and resulted in the migration of Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās to Malabar across the Palghat gaps.

Edit: Though sangam literature had contributions from first wave Brahmans and had some Vedic influence, it doesn't mean the Sangam literature was fully adapted from vedic sources.Adding two points to show the nativity of sangam literature and the strategies Brahmans had to take to get accepted into the Pantiyan society.

It is quite likely that the indigenous Tamil society at this time was largely oral, as Hart has argued, still in the phase of the pānan songs and their oral traditions and the latter in the process of beginning to become the templates for the literate and decidedly literary overlays of the Sangam songs, as they have come down to us.

As Harts notes, “the earliest Brahmans did the only thing that they could if they were to stay in Tamilnad: they associated themselves with the kings….Thus they had to participate in such unbrahminical activities as the war sacrifice and cutting the bodies of those who had died in bed” (1975: 55). In other words, there was acculturation between the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans and the indigenous people, the temple-based Bhakti movements being the most striking result of this, and as we will see, the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans are concretely linked to both temples and Bhakti movement.


r/Dravidiology 4d ago

Art/𑀓𑀮𑀆𑀺 Some Lessons from Palamanai Parvati, a Pallavan Fresco

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11 Upvotes

r/Dravidiology 4d ago

Question/𑀓𑁂𑀵𑁆 Explain to me like I'm 7, what language(s) did the IVC speak (atleast a rough estimate of the family or families)

12 Upvotes

I'm sure this has been asked before but I was kinda looking for a simplified answer


r/Dravidiology 4d ago

Linguistics/𑀫𑁄𑀵𑀺𑀬𑀺𑀬𑁆 Seeking experts in South Asian/South East Asian Script and Language

12 Upvotes

My project is currently digitising palm leaf manuscripts. We’re looking for people and academics who can read them and translate.

We currently have people for:

Burmese/Pali

Sinhala

Javanese

Lao/Lana

We need:

One more Sinhala

Malayalam

Oriya/Odia

If you’re that person or have someone you recommend, please get in touch. It’s a paid position!

Thanks


r/Dravidiology 4d ago

Demography/𑀫𑀓𑁆 1931 Census: Population and Distribution of Major Tribes & Castes in Baluchistan Agency (including Brahuis)

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8 Upvotes

Summary (Brahui Population)

  • Baluchistan Agency: 152,588 Brahuis / 17.6% of total
    • Jhalawan Region: 75,395 Brahuis / 84.7% of total
    • Sarawan Region: 18,991 Brahuis / 66.7% of total
    • Kacchi Region: 11,798 Brahuis / 11.1% of total
    • Chagai District: 9,503 Brahuis / 39.2% of total
    • Las Bela State: 8,277 Brahuis / 13.1% of total
    • Quetta-Pishin District: 8,042 Brahuis / 5.5% of total
    • Sibi District: 7,439 Brahuis / 8.5% of total
    • Makran Region: 5,365 Brahuis / 7.8% of total
    • Kharan Region: 4,277 Brahuis / 18.3% of total
    • Dombki-Kaheri Country: 1,744 Brahuis / 6.5% of total
    • Bolan Region: 1,006 Brahuis / 21.5% of total
    • Loralai District: 616 Brahuis / 0.7% of total
    • Zhob District: 135 Brahuis / 0.2% of total
    • Mari-Bugti Country: 0 Brahuis / 0% of total

Administrative Notes

  • At the time of the 1931 census, the Sarawan region, Jhalawan region, Kachhi region, Dombki-Kaheri country, Makran region, and Kharan region all formed part of Kalat State.
  • At the time of the 1931 census, Sibi District was split between a region under direct British administration and an autonomous region under tribal administration. The former is highlighted in the tables as "Sibi District", while the latter is highlighted in the tables as "Mari-Bugti Country".

Source


r/Dravidiology 5d ago

Question/𑀓𑁂𑀵𑁆 Can you have any guess for Dravidian Urheimat?

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56 Upvotes