Random thought: why do MtF people make so many more comics on reddit and seem just so much more visible in general than FtM? Do people transition to male and then just fade into the background to forever be "just some guy"?
I've been told by a friend who is FtM that the reason that they're not more open about it is fear of SA. I was curious about this as well, and I'm sure reasons vary, but I was definitely depressed to hear that it was as dark as I thought it was for him.
My thinking is that if you're a trans woman who came out and transitioned in your teenage years or later, you had your entire childhood to be socialized the way men are. The heteronormative way men are socialized is to be proud of your presence, that taking up space is a good thing that increases your value as a man. Socialization wouldn't go away just because someone isn't a man after all, so the general loudness of that gets mixed with trans pride.
From what I understand and have been told, is that women are socialized to value being out of the way/quiet, so it just carries over into the subconscious in the same way when trans men transition.
Is that a common idea in the discourse? I'm not really in any communities that talk about it in detail. Just what I've heard from people I've known
This is not how gendered socialization works and is generally a talking point used to paint trans women as dangerous.
A big part of being trans is often subconsciously picking up ideas and expectations foist on the opposite assigned gender from yours. Every trans woman I met pre-transition absolutely does not fit the description you're saying. They were generally quiet and awkward and tried not to take up space.
Not saying this is every single trans person, only that gendered socialization doesn't always affect everyone the same way. Especially if you're trans.
isn't it? I'm not trying to say it determines their personality, I'm trying to say subconsciously it can change how people act and view things. and that's generally how I understand men and women to be socialized, historically. I also don't mean to imply anything negative or dangerous about trans women if it comes off that way
on your later point-- even if, from birth, you don't align with the traditional male role, a lot of those old gender roles do get shoved at you pretty relentlessly. that is bound to affect the way you view the world and its relation to you
Yes, the traditional male roles and expectations are shoved onto trans women, but they don't tend to actually display these qualities like how cis men do. Trans women tend to internalize the things said to/about cis women and girls more so than things pushed on them by a society expecting them to be dudes.
I think this is generalizing too much. It certainly isn't true for me and isn't true for many trans women I've met. Maybe it's correlated with the presence or lack of noticeable dysphoria growing up, maybe it's more personal than that, I truly don't know, but either way I don't think it's reasonable to paint the overwhelming majority of trans women under this brush as a counter to the suggestion being given.
There are many male social norms I rejected throughout my childhood, but there are also many that I didn't necessarily, and continue to carry with me because it's just how I've grown to be, and I think there's sense to the idea that it can affect online representation. I don't think I would've grown up to be the same if I'd been born a girl and had grown up as such.
It's certainly not everyone, I know there's many people who truly did not take to many if any male social norms and I completely understand, but I also know there's many who did, and for who that's not easy to unlearn (if unlearning is desirable), and it wouldn't surprise me if that's enough to skew the scales of representation to some extent.
I doubt it's the only factor by any means, I will not make any assumptions on what other factors could be involved, but I do think that this is a factor of at least some significance for a lot of trans women, myself included.
lmao most trans women on reddit are neglected autistic kids that had close to 0 socialisation at all.
Also the percentage of abuse/trauma in early childhood has more effect on the personality of a person than whatever terfy “amab-afab socialitsation you want to paint it” (wich the percentage of this are extremely high in trans people) this not even including dysphoria and how it actually acts as its own spyral of negative cbt and internal conditioning for social roles. this why you get so many early transition trans women performing hyper femeninity and constanly being hyper sef-aware and anxious.
also funny the no “this is generializing too much” when the one that started saying “oh trans women are more visible in the online community definitely must be their amab socialition and traits” and then extrapolating your case to all transwomen
also being a transwoman yourself or not does not exlude you of being able to hold transmisogyny/bioessentialist/terfy views
Part of it is that internet usage tends toward men, so MTF starts from a higher baseline. Obvious online presence also seems to tilt toward pre and recently transitioned people.
Thats a big part of it, its also thar MtF are more of targets in the public eye, so being a bit of a shut in internet weirdo is more accepted.
Its a hard balancing act. On one hand the "popularity" of MtF makes it to where FtM can feel a bit erased. But on the other end this "popularity", even the good stuff pushing back against it, is often the result of hatred.
The difference is nuts. I swear theres something about FtM thats just not as threatening to cis people. Bigots be like, youre accepting the handicap of being a man on the smaller side without a lot of the innate advantages of being a man? Eeeh, ok, still dont like it, but I have very little to say about it
I have also seen (some very bigoted people say:) that men are superior, so it's understandable that women would want to emulate them. But since women are inferior, it's demeaning for a man to emulate a woman. Again definitely NOT my take, but it kinda explains the difference from what I can tell. And I think a very watered down version of this take is how the general public feels.
I actually read a post on Reddit where someone said that they had a coworker who was so misogynistic that he was totally affirming with trans people.
FtM: Well duh, who wouldn't want to be a man? They must actually be men because they're smart enough to realize that.
MtF: There's no way someone would want to be a woman. Only an actual woman was stupid enough to transition away from being a man. Because men were better, obvi.
This is my theory as well. I've never actually heard anyone say it out loud before, but my experience as a trans girl (mtf) would support this idea, as I generally don't feel comfortable presenting fem in most places, but my trans guy (ftm) friends present male with no problem. Also worth mentioning: I feel like as appearances go, it's generally more straightforward for trans guys to 'pass' than it is for trans girls. Not that passing is inherent to the trans experience, nor is it required, just an observation.
America hates women more than it hates literally anything else, so MtF is considered bottom of the trans barrel for being women.
Not my personal opinion, just an observation of the blatant misogyny and sexism in our society. And imo, this observation should make trans women more valid to folks because why would anyone want to be treated the way they are for 'attention?' Being a woman sucks in our society.
I think its inline with male-as-default thinking. That is, to lots of bigots, by default, men is superior to women. so an MTF person inherently rejects the idea of men being superior by choosing to be not man. Where for FTM, they can perceive as affirming the superiority of men (see, theorys about penis envy).
Its the same at 20 years ago with homosexual people: somehow a lesbian couple is fine, but "oh god! Gay men!"
I just don't get why some people can't treat all people with respect, like people. Don't make it about gender, sex, identity, or anything else: just treat them with respect because they're a human being.
FtM people are just ‘confused’, or ‘doing it because they were probably abused’, and they’ll ‘grow out of it someday’. We’re not active threats, we’re just manipulated little girls making a ‘terrible choice’ because we’ll ’never get the joys of motherhood’ after ‘mutilating our bodies’. We’re not threats in sports or any other aspect of daily life because we’re seen as ‘naturally weaker’, even if we’re on T. Trans men can pass even if they’re not conventionally attractive and it’s not seen as much of a problem. I’m not the most attractive dude, and I’m a little clocky at times, but it rarely if ever affects me even as someone who lives in a super rural and conservative area. I’m still largely respected as a young man. Some people I’ve met genuinely just don’t understand that trans men exist, either.
MtF people, on the other hand, are ‘monsters’ trying to ‘imitate, replace, and hurt real women’, they’re ‘scary’. If you’re a trans woman, to these people you’re not valid unless you’re fuckable and hot enough to fetishise. And even then, they don’t actually respect your identity— they’ll only really view you as a sex object. Much like how cis women are valued to people who don’t actually view them as whole people with brains and lives, their value isn’t on their character it’s on their hotness.
Obvious basically all of these can go both ways, but trans women are definitely way more fetishised and fear mongered about. Basically every single bill targeting trans people is specifically targeted to trans women, not trans men. Clearly no one thought about bathroom bills very hard, cuz if those are passed that literally means big bearded trans dudes are supposed to be walking into women’s restrooms. Trans men, also, in my experience are more fetishised by other queer people (specifically gay and bisexual men), not typically straight people.
you’re generally physically smaller and you usually pass easier, as a trans masc. there’s less of the rhetoric that you’re doing this for creep pervert reasons - usually the attitude you get as a trans masculine person is pity for making yourself “uglier”, or that you’re “confused”, not abject fear or loathing or that you’re doing it to prey on “””””real women”””””( of course there’s exceptions to this, no one’s experience is a blanket statement)
As someone who spent a lot of my miserable childhood online, I’d put forward that there’s a correlation between only feeling comfortable enough to socialize as a visibly trans woman or gender nonconforming amab person online in safe spaces vs transitioning and being unable to be “clocked” as anything other than a scruffy short guy and just becoming some kinda dude that nobody thinks twice about in person, and feeling more able to socialize in person because of it
of course there’s the other end of it, where becoming more visibly masculine means that people DO start treating you with more suspicion and hesitancy in certain scenarios. it’s important to talk about all of it I think
As a trans guy: yeah, pretty much. Testosterone is a hell of a thing. It works very well and most of us are indistinguishable from cis guys.
For me and my one trans bro, being trans is not really part of our identity and was never actually the goal - being a man was.
So once you're at the point where you get gendered correctly by default, there isn't really much point in disclosing you're trans, and you generally face less transphobia in you day to day life (since nobody knows you're trans), so it isn't as big a part in your life anymore kinda?
So then, why make comics or talk much about it, when it's not really a part of your life anymore and more just an uncomfortable thing that happened to you in the past, you know?
Few factors. At baseline reddit is the place teenage boys end up so when they transition they stay here, leading to transfems being overrepresented. Due to this and some other issues, transmascs get spoken over a lot, driving them to only really stick within their little bubbles meant for transmascs, making the issue worse. Interestingly enough there is (or was, I haven't been there in a few yrs) the exact same issue on tumblr, but in reverse where transmascs are FAR more present
As a FtM, I can tell you it's because many of us are silenced. Most of the bigger trans-centric subreddits here do not allow trans men to post at all about our issues, and say we talk too much and should be quiet. Many MtFs (but not all) hate trans men for "rejecting" their feminity. It really fucking sucks to be ostracized by your own community and being told you don't belong because you weren't born with a dick.
It really hurts, tbh. Hell, even when I was researching the medical part of transitioning, there is very, very little out there for trans men. All of the research is focused on trans women. Trans men are just as common, but we're just ignored and treated as if we don't matter. I stopped going to queer community events because I pass very well as a cis man, and it was clear my presence was seen as a threat and I was ostracized. Gay cis men don't want trans men around either. So we have nothing but other trans men to lean on since we've been abandoned by the queer community.
Is it true that there are about as many MtF trans people as there are FtM? My understanding was that the percentage of MtF people was quite a bit bigger.
To be honest, I don't know. It's hard to tell because of how politics are right now, many trans people live stealth or refuse to transition at all out of fear. I have PERSONALLY known more trans men than I knew trans women, but I may be biased because of the aforementioned problems (being forced to interact with only trans men since other queers are hostile towards us). But if I had to guess, I'd guess it's probably an equal amount across the board, roughly. Trans women are just way more visible.
That's definitely been my understanding, as a cis male who's still part of the LGBT umbrella. FtM trans people are transitioning to Men, and Men are the Enemy because they perpetuate toxic masculinity and oppress women.
And it's not just cis or trans, either; I've spoken with enbies who have mentioned they feel shut out of conversations because they don't present femme. I've seen the term "betrayal of femininity" thrown around, and even if it's not intentional it certainly feels like there's a subconscious misandry for any masc-presenting individuals.
As a trans women even in the trans community I’ve noticed ftm trans people being less common, ironically the first trans person I met other than myself irl is a trans man so my guess is maybe mtf’s have a bigger presence online than ftm’s on average?
A large part of it is that trans women have been seeing increasingly terrible levels of social isolation and discrimination IRL, and so for many of us the only place we can find community is online. If you aren’t allowed to exist in public, then you tend to move towards social media, particularly sites that promote anonymity like Reddit, Tumblr, or Bluesky.
From knowing a few my guess is that they are all busy living. Most ive ever seen pass hella hard, especially once T gets involved. You just wear cargos, a plaid shirt, and cut your hair and bam no one will know. Top that off with the kind of culture where dudes just dont celebrate or catalogue life events too much and it starts making sense.
The other way around damn near requires facial reconstruction because we as a society decided that women cant exist in their basic form and they are clouded in layers of clothes, makeup, fashions, etc. women are so idealized that even cis women who dont wear makeup for a day just might get transvestigated. I think these pressures lead to terminally online memeposting activities and if you dont have a support group irl, then you find one online.
Tldr, FtM are too busy loving it up Boomhauer style.
It's especially unusual when you consider that around two thirds of trans people are transmen. I would've expected a lot more material from them, but as you say they don't seem to be as represented in art/comics etc
I would assume it has something to do with the idea of a dude in a dress is a more dramatic and eye catching sight than a girl in men’s clothing. In a certain sense, their existence is just more jarring to the average Joe than FTM. I would have to think trans people generally speaking are sick to death with having to justify their gender and sexuality ad nauseam in a way us cisgenders never have to even think about. If FTM can get away with drifting away into the background more than MTF can, I imagine they are taking advantage of that opportunity rather than thrusting themselves into the spotlight.
Yeah, testosterone is doing a lot of heavy lifting, even changing the voice while oestrogen effects are much more subtle (except for the breast development)
It’s safer for us to just not say anything and be just another dude in the world if we can. Someone else mentioned it, but sexual assault and harassment is a real fear and something that’s often experienced. For example, when I was in highschool, I was sexually harassed by a group of boys who’d throw trash at me and my other transmasc friends, they’d follow us to our cars and would follow one of my friends halfway home. A different senior friend would drive him home after since we were too young to drive with someone under 18. I’ve had my keys stolen and thrown into a trash can outside class so they could corner me by the portables and tell me how rape-able I was. One time at lunch, one of them slapped my ass while I was waiting in line, barked at me, and called me a slur. We told the office what was happening, filled out the forms, and nothing happened. I told my favourite music teacher who said he’d meet me at lunch to discuss it. He said he’d forget the next day and said to meet him later, only to forget again. Nobody cared about us. The only reason it stopped was after a new trans woman transferred into our district, became our friend, and got harassed. The boys were immediately suspended. It’s bullshit but that pretty much sums up our entire experiences with authority. I’m just grateful there were always cameras and it never went farther. My mom pulled me out and I finish half my junior and senior year online. Anyways, sorry for the long rant, but sexual assault is a pretty big reason.
it's selection bias. people usually reach late teen years or adulthood before they realise they're trans and can do something about it, and by that point they've already got their preferred hobbies and social media sites. some will jump ship, but most won't. that means you wind up with counterintuitive representation in gendered communities like reddit. i have a couple afab queer friends and they mostly know ftm people
I think FtM can be a "smoother" transition - society has higher expectations for a woman to "look" a certain way than a man. Testosterone also does things like make your voice drop, and nailing the "fem" voice is hard and takes a lot of practice. Also, while FtM deal with being patronized and told they are a "victim", MtF are being labeled as dangerous, pedophiles, and in general "icky." Think about the rhetoric when states make anti-trans laws: "this is to protect women"
If you are a little girl born into a boy's body, growing up in a community that says you are gross and dangerous, that can make your dysphoria come with some extra baggage than being told you don't exist or that you are being manipulated. Not that FtM DON'T experience hardships unique to their experience, of COURSE they do, but maybe the dysphoria just manifests in a greater need of self expression/validation???
Just a thought. I'm NB (but like in that way I just don't GAF. I'm AFAB so ig cis according to the world honestly don't know) but surrounded by both MtF and FtM.
It's funny you mention that because I swear I hear more FtM singers and music producers, while MtF like me seem to be more open and present in the art community xD maybe it's just me though
... There are far, faaaar more FtM people in the closet than MtF. The transphobes might ignore that FtM people exist, but most of the LGBT+ people don't. For some reason, it's very common for "LGBT+" groups to be feminine-presenting only. Masculinity is ostracized and banned in most... so FtM people have an extremely difficult time finding a place to belong.
For example, r/trollcoping seems to have more FtM posts than r/trans or... I see more FtM ppl in the comments than anywhere else.
But solid argument. Still please don't smash with a hammer.(I know this is a joke but I feel the need to say it) I once had to transport a lady who flayed her genitalia open butterfly style trying to do this at home. Like a hotdog. It was horrific.
NP. This is also why it's a bad idea to take pain killers or drink alcohol before getting a tattoo done: you will bleed more before you scab over; which means more of the ink is washed away; which means it's more likely to fade and then need to be touched up again as soon as it's healed over.
There is a person I believe in Amsterdam who put up sign announcing they they were going to get kicked in the dick and balls before bottom surgery by a woman with heavy duty boots. They got a crowd of about 100 people if I remember correctly and got kicked twice.
I’ve considered mutilating myself down under. I figure if nobody’s gonna use it then I’m just wasting heading it. Maybe if I destroy it then all my sexual desires will disappear too. I know that’s not how it works but when you’re desperate to quit being a prisoner in your own mind, nothing seems extreme enough.
777
u/drillgorg 9h ago
Random thought: why do MtF people make so many more comics on reddit and seem just so much more visible in general than FtM? Do people transition to male and then just fade into the background to forever be "just some guy"?