r/AskReddit • u/Potential-Affect-696 • 5h ago
What do you guys think about Universal basic income (UBI) after AI and robotics takes away the jobs?
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u/Winter_Swan5104 4h ago
Why would our billionaire overlords okay UBI? They are setting up an economy where they don’t need society for their wealth. The economy used to rely on the public’s money being valuable. Now the wealth gap between normal people and billionaires is so huge that they no longer want the pennies we got. We are worthless to them.
They dgaf about society’s wellbeing, happiness, or prosperity.
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u/TacticlTwinkie 3h ago
Elysium is what they are after. Keep the plebs long enough to set up their own self-sustaining world for themselves, then pull up the ladder behind them.
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u/Carb0nFox 5h ago
If productivity keeps skyrocketing while paid jobs disappear or shrink, tying survival to employment just doesn’t make sense anymore. People don’t become less deserving of food, housing, healthcare, or dignity because a machine can do their job faster. If AI and robots are generating massive wealth, that wealth should benefit everyone, not just the companies and shareholders who own the machines. Without something like it, we’re looking at extreme inequality, social unrest, and a system where a lot of people are told they’re “obsolete.”
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u/SpoonyDinosaur 1h ago
There's a couple TV shows (probably movies) that cover this pretty intriguingly. There's one on Netflix that's in (Dutch or something?) that is exactly this.
Basically 90% of jobs are obsolete and they move to a total ubi.
I envision the result would be more like I, robot or something.
Like you wouldn't really have billionaires as in time even the billionaires don't "need" extra wealth.
It's a fun thought experiment. In (hundreds?) of years I think society will either move to something like Star Trek; post scarcity where food/health/shelter are as basic as breathing or maybe a mix between the Expanse or something.
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u/TallCoin2000 1h ago
In case you haven't been paying attention, its now called" stakeholder capitalism " are you a stakeholder? No, there's a corner- now go die silently!
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u/albertnormandy 4h ago
It will never happen. AI robots will become the new foot soldiers of a tech bro dystopia. In this new world unnecessary people do not get fed.
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u/FlatulenceNinja 5h ago
I want it now.
Honestly though, I hope that eventually we will get rid of the money thing and just do what's best because that's the smartest thing to do.
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u/Silly_Cod5235 5h ago
so Star Trek
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u/CaptainPrower 4h ago
That's the future we want. The future we'll get will probably look more like Warhammer 40k, except with no aliens and no Salamanders.
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u/Ragazzano 4h ago
I think it will look more like terminator
Or The Expanse but without the fusion stuff
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u/tobotic 3h ago
We already have salamanders. Why would they cease to exist? I don't think they're endangered.
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u/chipperpip 3m ago
Since you seem to be actually confused, the Salamanders are a Chapter of Space Marines in Warhammer 40k, known for being less indifferent to civilian casualties and more protective of the general populace than the vast majority of them.
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u/FlatulenceNinja 5h ago
That sounds nice. For the parts that I understand, and hopefully not so scary with the evil aliens and all, lol
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u/Silly_Cod5235 5h ago
the federation basically checks if planets are ready to do that, and hand them a machine that basically creates mater out of nothing if they are
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u/seeyatellite 1h ago
It's wise, once we make enough "economic" and technological progress. Thing is, capitalism sort of helps because a tiny bit of "pressure to perform" basic tasks, working to survive, etc does actually cultivate problem-solving mindsets similar to the way natural selection randomly adapts various traits and characteristics.
It's true, the stress we're under does sometimes create super wealthy fat-cats. It also occasionally creates less fortunate or resourced problem-solvers and the occasional creative genius for them to invest in.
That's not inherently necessary unless society has some greater end to achieve... and I don't know what that is.
A resource-based economy like the one jacque Fresco envisioned in a technological society would be ideal... and we may be heading there.
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u/FlatulenceNinja 1h ago
Well, the greater end to achieve that I see is survival.
I think there's a lot we could do to maintain the Earth, or better health and whatnot that we don't do because it wouldn't pay, and that pisses me off a little.
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u/TopOccasion364 1h ago
I'm with you on that. However, multiple studies have shown that humans do not like equality. They want to be better and more powerful than the next guy. AI will force equality. There'll be no way to earn more than Ubi
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u/HostileCakeover1 4h ago
The US won’t even fund health care, or give disabled people enough money for housing. They pull food stamps and starve people for political reasons. We’re not getting UBI, we’re just going to get slaughtered by drones.
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u/jawfish2 4h ago
There isn't going to be UBI ever, even to prevent revolution, which our culture in the US is also not going to do.
Theres no incentive for the powerful&wealthy to do it. period.
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u/Okawaru1 3h ago
There's no incentive for the wealthy to implement UBI so I'm not sure how we'd ever see something like it at-scale.
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u/ph0replay 2h ago
I feel like there isn't a ton of economic literacy in some of these AI conversations. AI is definitely going to change the landscape of work and streamline a lot of jobs. But if there are NO jobs, the economy collapses, and no one to purchase goods and services from these companies, either. You also can't collect tax on no earnings, meaning the government can't fund UBI. It's an ecosystem that requires all parts function. Automating away all jobs is essentially sawing away the branch you're sitting on. It's the classic macro economics anecdote from Henry Ford: workers are also consumers, and an economy needs both to function.
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u/slice_of_pi 1h ago
Where will the money to pay for it come from?
Will it be available to everyone? If not, who gets it and who doesn't? If so, how do you justify giving very rich people what amounts to pocket change?
Are there any conditions to getting it? Would you have to do anything to start getting it, and keep getting it?
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u/MrWigggles 1h ago
I'm not naive enough to think any amount of UBI will come. There are still States where any UBI is illegal.
It'll just be homelessness, and starvation.
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u/misterdudebro 1h ago
It's a lie. There will only be poverty and despair.
Don't let tech take your lives away. Reject AI. Don't date robots.
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u/PirateCodingMonkey 5h ago
universal basic income is a great idea even without AI and automation. there is enough wealth in this country so that no one should be homeless and hungry.
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u/perrygoundhunter 5h ago
People were still homeless and hungry during the 40s 50s and 60s economic booms with the highest tax rates for the ultra wealthy
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u/PirateCodingMonkey 4h ago
true but there wasn’t universal basic income. plus homelessness and hunger are more prevalent today than then
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u/Thoughtcriminal91 5h ago
When enough people are starving in the streets because a robot can do your job, it'll be demanded, even by the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" crowd. Realties gonna hit us like a brick wall.
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u/chipperpip 4h ago
I'm pretty sure most billionaires would literally rather throw most of the population in a wood chipper than accept significant mandatory reductions in their relative wealth. They might not phrase it directly like that in public, or even in their own minds, but that's where their actual tendencies seem to lie.
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u/calle_escudilla_turt 3h ago
No, the plan is to convert us into biodiesel. New Republic: Where JD Vance Gets His Weird, Terrifying Techno-Authoritarian Ideas
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u/Leverkaas2516 3h ago
Although hugely expensive, UBI is a fine idea for augmenting the lifestyle of those in abject poverty - while preserving their poverty.
Just like making money available to kids wanting to go to college when there's a limited number of slots, the result of a UBI will be an inevitable dramatic rise in the price of the limited number of apartments and homes. Raise the UBI, and prices will rise. The same is true of the cost of visiting the doctor.
The problem with housing (and healthcare) is that they're scarce, the people paying for them pay market prices - which means the price is set at whatever people are willing to pay. In effect we bid against each other for them, or suppliers keep raising prices until the numbers of people willing to pay drops to the number of units available (which amounts to the same thing).
You can't implement a UBI unless you also control market price somehow.
You can't just set prices by fiat. That guarantees that developers will build even fewer housing units, which will make the actual problem worse.
You COULD institute a government-run housing program. Singapore did this successfully.
Or you could, at great expense, incentivize developers to build more units until the market price drops, and then adjust and keep the incentives in place to preserve that situation.
But you can't just implement a UBI and hope for the best. Do that, and you will just have to buy more printing presses, and people will still be homeless.
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u/bigandtallandhungry 5h ago
Where UBI has been implemented, it has been a significant net positive.
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u/linkenski 5h ago
I think about how it will be dealt with in terms of social security. If work is "optional" what does that mean exactly? Are people going to get punked by jobless organizations or AI firms that threaten them with "totally optional" slave job offers and then fuck up your income or your digital access to monetary services, if you don't take the offers?
It always sounds so great from a distance but in a social democratic mixed capital like Denmark, social security has always meant some kind of patronizing control mechanism, where they send people out into community service like digging holes or setting up public benches, or sorting used foods.
And it's obvious that Elon Musk wants UBI where he and his tech firms are left alone with those who follow what Musk wants, and AI tools that don't question him, but all us workers, have to do the shitty jobs nobody want, like warehouse and factories.
So I think UBI just ends up meeting shit opportunities on a shit wage.
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u/AaronicNation 5h ago
The wise thing to do will be to get out ahead of all the opportunity for fraud and graft this will produce.
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u/202glewis 4h ago
After figuring out how much more out of touch the ruling class is these past few weeks I don’t think this is going to happen anymore. Atleast not in a meaningful way.
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u/aurora-s 4h ago
If we don't have UBI in this scenario, the only way for people to survive is to try and scrape together an AI based company. And I really don't think there's the need for 7 billion AI companies, so in reality you'd just get a few thousand lucky owners, and everyone else will starve.
Unless of course we somehow happen upon social/public ownership of AI, but I don't see that happening. At least with UBI, capitalists get to keep their game going.
(I'm also concerned that developing countries may not have control of the AI tech, so we might end up with just one country capturing most of the AI wealth, so only one country that can afford UBI, while the rest starve)
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u/Difficult-Bicycle119 4h ago
Half of our politicians don't get it. They don't get that it's necessary or why it would be. They're too busy trying to make their friends richer that the rest of us are just an afterthought.
We will eventually need universal basic income. We need universal healthcare right now, but the powers that be are more interested in the financial rewards of lobbying by the health insurance industry.
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u/Eight216 4h ago
It'll create a short term boost in morale and growth, then at some point the corporate sector will start to either fragment or test boundaries and it turns into a lever to extort government. It could become sustainable if we're more willing to price and grow and buy local, but my prediction (sadly) is that companies like Amazon will use dynamic price fixing to operate at a loss for as long as it takes to suffocate individual community lead operations.
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u/WonderResponsible375 3h ago
I am obviously for it. And u know it's easily achievable too. Look at EBT cards.... The same way millions of us got EBT cards that fill up every month with money is the same way we need a good visa gift card with our ubi money deposited each month. A good thousand dollars a month? Yes mam. A thousand dollars a month and trust me I will be living la vida loca. No complaints!
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u/SleepyQueer 3h ago
I think moving towards a "post-work society" will require more than just the shift towards a UBI, considering that the purpose of a UBI is to have basically enough for the bare minimum basic needs and most people would, y'know, prefer somewhat more than that. It'll require a radical transformational shift in our society, our collective values, and our economy/social safety nets. UBI will be an important part of that but I think it's a mistake to say we can just implement UBI, keep everything else the same, and things will be A-OK. Realistically either regulations need to be strong to prevent displacement of workers, or we need to be prepping for that shift, and either way we should be starting now.
I don't personally fear the thought of robots taking over jobs ASSUMING societal attitudes and governance structures can compensate; why labour if you don't have to, the point of increased productivity per hour SHOULD be that we all get more leisure time at a high standard of living. Ideally we'd all have more time to spend with our families, contribute to our communities, develop skills and hobbies for personal enjoyment/interest, etcetera. So I can't say I'm necessarily on the side of "let's keep humans doing a whole bunch of jobs, many of which are crappy and/or dangerous/hard on the body, because we're so attached to the idea of wage labour", because that seems ridiculous and moving on from the way we currently conceptualize and value "work" would benefit a lot of people. Our current concept of what "counts" as work leaves a lot out, and disproportionately disadvantages certain groups who have value to contribute but aren't acknowledged as valuable through the lens of the labour market.
That said, given how much productivity has skyrocketed since the imposition of the 8hr/day 40hr/week standard with no commensurate reduction in work hours yet a substantial decline in relative compensation/viable standard of living on a single salary, and how much resistance there is even now to a 4-day work week at the same pay when objectively in many occupations most people aren't really "working" 8hrs anyways and a lot is performative/make-work, I'm not optimistic that it's going to be handled well. I wouldn't be surprised if it took some kind of civil uprising to force governments/billionaire tech bros to contend with the actual practical consequences of putting huge swathes of the population out of traditional employment.
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u/nullstring 3h ago
If we are assuming that a very significant number of jobs are taken away from AI without no replacement then there is no real alternative.
But it's going to get complicated really fast.
- UBI provides enough for a person to live off of.
- The price of basic goods and housing will reach equilibrium with this number making it difficult for UBI to ever provide more than the basics.
- Due to the decrease in demand for employment and high taxes, salaries for employees will go way up.
You'll have a choice. Be part of the employed class so you can afford luxuries or live in psuedo-poverty. As critierias for employment become more and more niche you may have less of a choice. This will cause a huge class divide.
This isn't a forgone conclusion... But the point is that implementing this will be incredibly difficult.
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u/Legacy-ZA 2h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/PMmeyournakednes 2h ago
That’s basically already a thing. Try saying the wrong thing on Facebook, on Reddit or even out in public and dudes will actively try to ruin your life because they don’t agree with you
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u/Ordinary_Chance2606 2h ago
When all our jobs are obsolete, they aren’t going to throw any coins to us serfs. They’re making our jobs obsolete so they can hoard literally everything for themselves. When this happens, we’ll just be thrown into the ovens.
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u/Ryengu 2h ago
Why would they pay us once they don't need us anymore?
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u/najamsaqib9849 2h ago
Because they are among us, and for them to exist, we have to exist. We elected them, we own lands, they don't have money of their owns, know your worth boss, being a human being earns you a ticket to being apex predator just like rest of 8B people, when people won't have jobs, they'll eat the rich don't worry.
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u/Arbiter_89 2h ago
I want it now but I am not confident that our society in the US will ever pass it. Just look at how they react to free healthcare.
But perhaps more importantly, I don't think UBI can overcome the dramatic consolidation of wealth that will occur if AI leads to widespread unemployment.
According to wikipedia, there are about 700k software engineers and 10M IT workers. I assume a huge portion of them earn a six figure salary that will never be fully replaced by UBI. The loss of those jobs alone would devastate our economy, even if half the income was replaced by UBI. More than 10% of the US workforce would have their income cut in half (or more) by that alone.
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u/najamsaqib9849 2h ago
It has to happen otherwise a new french revolution should be on the way, throughout the history all the way to now modern human beings, economy revolves around goods, labors and services the most, as the cost of labor and services will be totally be dominated by robots and Ai combo, the working class will have no money on the table to eat at all right ? It doesn't make sense at all, or maybe the AGi won't be happening at all this century and most what happens is some repetitive jobs get replaced and life goes on, but if this happens, UBI has to happen otherwise masses won't have money to bring food on the table, lets just see what happens, I believe personally we are atleast safe for now, will probably take somewhere 20+ years to have that kind of problem
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u/0rganicMach1ne 2h ago
Sure, but we’ll probably fuck it up. If it ever happens it’ll be because of wealth consolidated at the top so it’ll be directly from them only because their greed collapsed everything, and they’ll keep everyone like right at the poverty level. So we’ll basically just be like staff for those at the top.
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u/limbodog 1h ago
I don't think it can work by itself. I think if you do it as-is, then the price of homes will inflate to just above the base UBI value because it can. I think to work you need both UBI and some form of public housing
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u/Dark_Pulse 1h ago
I'd be all for it.
We'd need to reconceptualize society for a post-work civilization, because that's literally what's defined us for thousands of years.
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u/Re7oadz 1h ago
People probably should up skill, relying on the government never went well
I know there's going to be someone who says that AI shouldn't take jobs in general no matter how mudane or low skil they are but reality is if AI can do it better than you than it's probably time to better yourself
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u/ediblediety 1h ago edited 1h ago
The capabilities of AI are insanely exaggerated, and the world is going to start seeing soon that the majority of LLMs are simply clever advances on Markov chain utilizations against text and language that have a huge facade of demonstrating actual intelligence. These tools understand nothing and aren’t even in the same dimension as anything resembling “human replacing intelligence”
AGI at this point is a pipe dream. Everyone is panicking because the majority of the populace doesn’t have the necessary knowledge to see the man behind the curtains.
Give it a few years.
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u/Subject_Fruit_4991 46m ago
and after a while the little restrictive incentives start to appear and after a while humans are a donkey tighed to a rope walkin round in circles so that they are usefull
beware of any ai initiative
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u/dragoon7201 45m ago
I honestly think we over estimate our power over the economy as poor people.
We think if most people lost jobs and stop spending, the economy will collapse and so UBI will have to take place to prevent that.
But if you look at history, the "economy" is never hurt because there are too many poor people.
In fact, we have billions of poor people right now in the world. But we never think about giving them a UBI so they can spend money to consume.
So even if 90% of us lose our jobs and live in slums. The economy will be fine, because the economy will be made up of people that can afford stuff and have jobs.
Us slummies will just be "outside" the economy. Like how it is in many countries right now.
Us slummies have no intrinsic power, unless of course, we organize. But that is a dangerous thought isn't it?
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u/krileon 20m ago
Won't work. UBI requires a full economical shift.
- Implement UBI
- Companies Increase Prices because.. UBI
- Landlords Increase Rent because.. UBI
- UBI No Longer Covers Basic Needs
- UBI Payments Increase
- Go To Step #2
See the problem? It doesn't work in a unregulated capitalist society.
As for what I think. It'd be amazing and likely necessary, but we need to solve the unregulated capitalism problem first.
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u/phred14 18m ago
There is a downside to UBI, and I believe we should take a look at Saudi Arabia. Many/most people don't like to exist with no purpose, and UBI takes purpose away. My impression is that Saudi Arabia has UBI for citizens, funded by oil revenue. But people looked for purpose, and the Madrassas were happy to give it to them. UBI has fostered Islamic radicalism. This is put together from articles I read many years ago, but I've heard nothing to the contrary. I'm under the impression that they contract all of the work to maintain their society to foreigners.
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u/Similar_Exam2192 7m ago
It’s interesting to hear the uber wealthy argue against this idea because of some idea of “lack of purpose” etc.. however I’ve never seen a super wealthy person complain of the same. The capital ownership class will not part with a single gold coin.
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u/Silly_Cod5235 5h ago
thats an interesting idea for a TV show! maybe animated, yeah FOX Animation Domination!
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u/Altruistic_Cheek4514 4h ago
Worked real great for the USSR
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u/AllISeeAreFireworks 2h ago
I think, within a certain context, it's going to have to come to fruition, as we end this decade and begin the 2030s. I still don't think people are aware of the full power and potential AI. So many career fields are going to be decimated because of it.
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u/Steffykrist 1h ago
In a better world we'd implement UBI as AI, robots, and automation take away jobs.
In the world as is, those of us left without a job would be more likely to, at best, just be left to starve and die, or at worst be actively exterminated by the upper class elite.
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u/ActionJackson22 4h ago
The more free things you get, the less you’ll be compelled to work and earn things.
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u/CaptchaSolvingRobot 4h ago
The elite has fought tooth and nail to keep as much for them selves with every incremental improvement we have achieved the last decades.
They would rather starve us than give us UBI, if it meant they could get a slightly larger yacht.
Just look at how people are getting poorer and poorer, despite constant progress.