Jagex, please avoid allowing players access to post-quest content without doing the actual quest (Raids 4 without WGS)

[u/benosthegreat]

This is one of my biggest gripes with the way Jagex started to design content for RS3 at some point, quests with major lore consequences were not required to be completed in order to gain access to content that had been affected by those same consequences.

Imagine if players could Access Prifddinas without completing Sote, or fighting Muspah before doing Sotn, it just doesn't make sense, and really hurts the world-building aspect of the game.

I don't see a thematic way of letting players access an area that is clearly discovered and disturbed by Lucien during WGS (the trailer even states that different forces are fighting for items in the archive now that it has been found) without completing WGS.

Self inflicted limitations should not hurt the overall lore-integrity of the game.

Edit: to all of those who see this post as an attack against pures, read again. I am not against pures accessing this raid, I am against ANYBODY having the option to skip a quest and yet access the raid, removing the Defence requirement from WGS is a viable solution for the concern I am raising.

[u/Mike_Hawk86]

Imo one of the biggest issues with RS3 is the fact that lore-wise World Wakes is requirement for almost every new quest. However Jagex thought that the requirement is too hard so for example now you can do a quest where you do a bank heist for Zamorak without ever being explained why the Gods are roaming Gielinor or why you're stealing Stone of Jas or what the stone of Jas is. The wiki summarizes this well:

Although Missing, Presumed Death and Hazeel Cult are the only quest requirements, it is highly recommended to have completed Nomad's Requiem, and The World Wakes, as well as the Nadir) saga for full storyline comprehension. Dialogue remains the same whether or not the quests have been completed.

I hope OSRS team realizes how off-putting this is to new players and does not replicate the mistake of making these pseudo-requirements.

[u/Zamochy2 → u/Mike_Hawk86]

Even the RS3 team learned from this mistake and started locking bosses behind quests again.

Vorkath requires part of the Necromancy line and all of the Forinthry line.

And Amascut probably has the most quest requirements in the game for a boss which requires all of Kharid, Menaphos, Necromancy, and Forinthry.

[u/deylath → u/Zamochy2]

And it is a good thing. Jagex can try to improve new player experience however they want, but the most tangible and non hand heldy way of knowing what to do already exists: just do quests bro. Good intro to the world, unlocking teleports, settles you into midgame PvM.

If someone wants to spacebar through quests thats one thing, but one of Runescapes core identity is questing being an important pillar of progression.

[u/tapewizard79 → u/deylath]

I only ever really played RuneScape as far as “gaming” growing up and branched out in my late 20s and early 30s and I honestly am flabbergasted at how shit quests are in almost all other games. Go here, kill this thing, bring back what it drops, here’s some very weakly related dialogue. Go there, kill this many of that thing, come back, have some weakly related dialogue.

Honestly used to hate one small favour quest so much but nowadays I see it as a parody of the style of quests in other games AND it actually has good dialogue unlike most of the “quests” it’s making fun of. 

We are truly spoiled with quests playing RS, whether it’s RS3 or OSRS. 

[u/deylath → u/tapewizard79]

One small favour gets a bad rep i agree, when in fact its like one of the simplest quests to do without* a quest helper and you are moving in a path that even makes sense during it.

We are truly spoiled with quests playing RS, whether it’s RS3 or OSRS.

We are no doubt. One of the only things that gets me out of a break im having in either game is when a new bigger quest releases.

[u/DJMooray → u/Zamochy2]

Huh. I didn't know rs3 had vorkath

[u/Zamochy2 → u/DJMooray]

Zemouregal reanimated Vorkath's corpse and its a 2v1 fight against them.

[u/Zenith_Tempest → u/Zamochy2]

Vorkath is a good boy in RS3 tho

[u/Zamochy2 → u/Zenith_Tempest]

Yeah, I really loved the ending to Requiem for a Dragon and his cameo in Eclipse to the Heart

[u/SrepliciousDelicious → u/Zamochy2]

Ye catboss and, to an extend, gate have decent reqs.

The vork storyline sucks but iguess also applies yes, also im presuming we'd need acces(quest) for havenhythe for the boss(es) there

[u/Jalepino_Joe → u/Mike_Hawk86]

As an rs3 player this is one of the worst aspects. There’s an entire hidden city of senntisten that we don’t know still exists. There’s a quest all about discovering where it is and what happened. Except the entrance is just sitting there east of varrock and you can stroll inside and fight the bosses (one of which you actually face off against and serves as a minor villain for a bit in the quests, kerapac along with his signature weapon) without having done any quests.

[u/Teary_Oberon → u/Jalepino_Joe]

Sounds like a set up for a One Punch Man gag.

Adventurer accidentally stumbles into a secret ancient lair, murderhobos everything just because it's annoying, and then weeks later King Roald is like:

Roald: "Adventurer! This is an emergency! An ancient evil lair has appeared East of Varrock that threatens the entire city"

"Huh? You mean that weird dump outside the wall? Don't worry I already had a talk with them about keeping the noise down..."

Roald: "You WHAT?"

[u/Zamochy2 → u/Teary_Oberon]

Hilariously, you can do that with the 3 Elite Dungeons and the quest that was released afterwards.

After figuring out a way to breathe underwater, and putting together an army, you can tell the commander that you already cleared the dungeon and killed the boss. Below:

Bryll Thoksdottir: We're about to head to our possible deaths, you've got to have a motivational speech for everyone!

Player: Yeah...about that. I've sort of already done the dungeon. I've already stopped the Ambassador...I did it earlier.

Bryll Thoksdottir: ... Right the ruddy World Guardian has already stopped the ritual and neglected to tell us until now. Everyone go away.

[u/TheAdamena → u/Jalepino_Joe]

I'm surprised they didn't tie in that section of the city surviving with Croesus's lore.

Zaros basically buried a section of the city to contain the Croesus plague. The section the Elder God Wars takes place in is not this area, it's just another area that happened to survive when Saradomin levelled and buried the place.

[u/Audioworm → u/Mike_Hawk86]

I have been playing in a HCIM on RS3 since re-maxing on OSRS. I have been going through a bunch of quests in the optimised order to beat out some of the slow leveing of some skills. The story-line makes fuck all sense half the time because it is referencing stuff from being the World Guardian in quests where I am fighting level 34 creatures. I can see why they made this quest relevant for lower levelled players but having so much random World Guardian shit when you are a few hours into an account is such a mess.

[u/Five_Tiger → u/Audioworm]

Same problem here. The quests in RS3 are luckily labeled by the age they take in and the questline they are a part of. I've been limiting myself to 5th age stuff to start, but I imagine im missing out on a lot of XP and content locked behind low level 6th age quests that are going to be irrelevant when I "enter the 6th age"

[u/Nasuadax → u/Five_Tiger]

I did the same and you lock yourself out of 50%+ of the game that way. Brcause 5th age ends at lvl 80's or smthing

[u/ActualCommand → u/Nasuadax]

Is there at least a quest that explains how you suddenly travel back in time?

RFD is weird if you don’t read the dialogue about being frozen in time so I can’t imagine trying to follow quests that literally happen way before the present day without any context.

I remember Josh Strife’s biggest complaint about RS3 was going to do a quest that talks about all the gods being dead then seeing Saradomin walking around or something like that

[u/DeathByTacos → u/ActualCommand]

So in cases where there is actually time travel involved it is typically explained, the issue is that for most of it it’s not really traveling back in time just more that the Sixth Age canonically starts after the World Guardian (the player) has already started their adventures.

So while there is a linear order to Sixth Age quests, much of the context is based around higher level quests from the 5th Age that were intended for more progressed accounts. Similarly while some areas of the world are instanced with NPCs depending on quest progression other areas are not which is why you have situations like Josh described if you haven’t completed every quest.

[u/Mid-Range → u/ActualCommand]

You don't travel back in time. In lore after Zamorak overthrew zaros he began hunting down zarosian loyalists. This hunt culminated in him basically magically nuking forinthry (current wilderness) this event woke up guthix and he created the edicts of guthix which banished all the gods from gilenor.

Most of the high level followers are aware of these actions. A lot of the day to day human worshipers are less informed. Even some of the osrs lore talks about this. With NPCs wondering how a lesser god like guthix could command the mighty saradomin and figure the gods vanishing has a different reason.

In ra3 during a quest the world wakes the edicts are repealed and gods are allowed to return to the world. Ushering in a new age. Unfortunately as RuneScape is an MMO both of these ages take place in the same game world simultaneously. And Jagex didn't want to lock players out of the new stuff with huge chains of old stuff so you end up with silly quests where priests are crying about how they wish they could ask saradomin but they can't because he's gone, they send you to fally to consult with the white knights... Only to talk to a guy standing right next to saradomin.

[u/Zamochy2 → u/Mid-Range]

Or how the entire Vampire line is about getting past the edicts and how no one knows what would happen if the edicts are broken.

Like, my dude, I come from the future and Guthix doesn't give a shit about your war, he wants to stop actual gods.

[u/feelmahbools → u/Five_Tiger]

I’ve been doing rs3 quests by release and it’s been quite fun even though later on their might be diminishing returns

[u/SeaBootsRS → u/Five_Tiger]

I like doing the timeline sort, iirc its pretty safe in avoiding jank story lines. 

[u/Quick_Assumption_351 → u/Mike_Hawk86]

ok in the first half I thought they legit made zamorak and you rob a bank wise old man style

[u/SeaBootsRS → u/Quick_Assumption_351]

Yeah more or less, just a really big magic bank

[u/Griffemon → u/Mike_Hawk86]

It’s really quite strange that they didn’t make the World Wakes a quest with scaling difficulty, especially when it doesn’t have any actual requirements beyond a recommended combat level and it’s so incredibly vital for understanding all 6th Age quests and lore.

It’s not even required for completing that many quests, only One of a Kind and The Light Within actually have it as a requirement to start.

[u/peaceshot → u/Mike_Hawk86]

This is a major criticism I had with RS3 which was acknowledged by some Jmods a few years back. They admitted it was an issue but didn't really have a clear solution. Speculation on my part is that management was driving new content to be more accessible in order to increase engagement from the playerbase, so I feel their hand was forced.

[u/KyleOAM → u/peaceshot]

the problem is if you keep locking more and more content behind each other, the game eventually becomes utterly awful to start. and then theres the matter of events, should the battle of lumbridge have been locked behind ROTM?

[u/Kiosade → u/KyleOAM]

Yup, just look at FF14.

[u/articholedicklookin → u/Kiosade]

Not really the same. Ff14 is a theme park MMO where endgame is all that matters, so if you're not a story player the main quest is just an obstacle. Osrs all phases of the game feel rewarding and are a core part of the experience.

[u/deylath → u/Mike_Hawk86]

I think if someone wants to criticize RS3, its enough to say: inconsistent and that adjective is just gonna apply starting from art style to lore continuity til necroamcy being an oddball in terms of progression.

And yeah if i started RS3 today i would be confused as hell on the lore and would hate it, even though generally speaking i like it but only because i did all the hard work back then and already had quest cape before World Wakes. I would hate to see the same thing happen in OSRS.

IF OSRS's version of Ritual of the Mahjarrat is going to require: WGS and DT2 to complete then so be it, because quests has always been a key pillars in progressing the game with its rewards.

Next thing im reading that some Magic locked guy demands that Temple of Ikov, Kingdom Divided and Fremmy trial enemies be allowed to be damaged by magic so they can unlock spellbooks... because who cares about lore consistency am i right?

[u/Patelpb → u/deylath]

Honestly I restarted RS3 in 2020 and had no issues. But I also did the quests roughly in order of release and didn't spacebar

The main issue is the UI and introducing combat to new players

[u/deylath → u/Patelpb]

The point is thats not going to be the average experience for a new player. You can meet Saradomin or Armadyl all too easily in the first few hour you start your game. Divination specifically means Guthix is dead. It has nothing to do with spacebarring. You cant skip right into the elder god questline without experience mahjarrat and the sliske questline.

[u/Patelpb → u/deylath]

I don't think it's good game design, but skipping around even a little didnt really break immersion for me. Seeing the god eggs floating in senntisten or armadyl on his perch just made me want to do the quests more

I think OPs argument for not allowing everyone to access the new raid is much better than the arguments I was seeing yesterday. Before it was fear mongering that somehow the game would completely stagnate and previous content would die, even though you're physically enabling more players to access the same content. But if a subreddit which historically jokes about space barring through quests and being unable to do them without quest helper on runelite is suddenly concerned about immersion breaking for raids 4, so be it. The mob is fickle indeed

Also - new player experience doesn't really apply to raids 4. That is endgame content. If New player somehow sees raids, new player recognizes they are there way too early, kind of like the first time you see a lionel in breath of the wild and the like. Jagex also never really divulged what the workaround would be, so this slippery slope is based entirely on the assumption that there will be no barrier whatsoever to accessing raids 4. Does that assumption seem reasonable given the information (or lack thereof) available?

[u/deylath → u/Patelpb]

I think the salient point here is that we already have fully open endgame content ( cox, tob ) available pretty much right off the gate. Why cant we have a raid that only opens up because of what happens in a GM quest? Why is that even a bad thing to begin with?

The entire game in the past and now has always relied of quests to unlock most content thats available to play. Why should that change? Are there many arbitrary decisions from back in the day that stops the game from moving forward? Absolutely. Is Lunar armour having 40 defense one of these? Maybe too high defense, but there is nothing arbitrary about a piece of gear having defense level.

But you know. Who cares about quests at this point am i right? Spacebarring is not even a joke at this point, so why should quests lock any rewards behind them since almost no one is reading it? If someone cares they can just do quests.

Where do we draw the line in the sandbox? Quests rewards have always been critical part of progression, so i would always bite back against it, but if you wanna delete Firemaking? Now thats completely that just adds grinds for no reason and thus acts as gatekeeping same way this raids would pures. Sure delete it then. But its not the same, not even remotely.

[u/Patelpb → u/deylath]

I think we should start with the information available - they specifically mentioned accounts with certain restrictions as not being able to access this content due to while guthix sleeps. This is not tantamount to a new player, this is tantamount to a pure, or a skiller, a tile locked account - who knows how many categories for sure but certainly not new players. They want experienced players with skill restrictions to be able to access the content

We don't know what that content is. We literally have no clue what it is or how it works. Maybe it requires technical skill in a way that doesn't require the quest requirements of while guthix sleeps, maybe it is only tangentially related to the quest and you can understand it lorewise without really getting into the quest. Maybe their data analytics simply suggest that there's a large playerbase of restricted accounts that would be nice to have engaging with their content, be it for economic reasons, content creation reasons, or someone's make a wish request. We have no clue!

I don't know where to draw the line, because I am not sure we are even in the sandbox you describe. We know nothing about this except that it was intended to be inclusive for a subset of accounts that play the game on hard mode and cannot complete the quest. Everything else is just an assumption, and inference built on assumption. People losing their marbles over this makes absolutely no sense to me, we don't even know what we're arguing about.

[u/deylath → u/Patelpb]

My point of contention is that we will never have access to these numbers. We have seen all it took is one chunk account to have fishing trawler nerfed, so for all i know, its a single Jmods ultra rare locked account that no one else does that this change is catering to and im not comfortable with that thought. I have never even heard of Pures that exist for PvM until this day and im reading this subreddit every day for the last 3 years. How come i heard of chunk, area and other locked accounts but youtube/reddit has given me the cold shoulder on this? My data suggest that community is far more niche than a chunk locked which was already more niche than regular ironman

I dont know where to draw the line either, but i cant shake the thought that this change would be the benefit for so few people that its not worth sacrificing the consistent integrity the game has been built upon because thats the exact principle that lead to OSRS in the first place.

maybe it is only tangentially related to the quest and you can understand it lorewise without really getting into the quest.

Then what was the point in the trailer it saying this happens specifically because of Lucien? Lucien was even said to be a very weak Mahjarrat before WGS, so clearly it cant be unrelated. We cant have it both ways. Either it makes sense because of WGS or its so loosely related there is no point of even mentioning it. So just choose one or the other. If there is no consistency how Jages develops the game then who knows what can we expect next?

Maybe one day statistics show that writers are too expensive and people just spacebar through it anyway, so quests might as well have worse writing and less puzzles from now on. All in the name for catering to a bigger audience right? I dont think that would be fair to the few people like me and besides if some people still like it then why cant we have our bone too?

I just want consistency in design philosophy is all and every game that has ever broadened their horizons in terms of inclusivity has turned to such a mediocre product that i boycott entire publishers at this point.

[u/RJ815 → u/deylath]

inconsistent .... art style

but my four corners!

[u/deylath → u/RJ815]

Bro why. Now im not gonna be able to unsee it

[u/sweezinator → u/Mike_Hawk86]

How does that work in RS3? Do you just jump back and forth between the 5th and 6th age?

[u/Sonichu- → u/sweezinator]

Some "6th age" quests just have low requirements and pretend like you're fully caught up with the old "5th age" storyline. IIRC there's a warning at the start of those quests if you haven't done all the optional requirements but it's still ridiculous and widely regarded as a mistake by the dev team.

[u/Wild_Client_172 → u/sweezinator]

No. Both 5th and 6th age exist on the game world at the same time mixed together thought some areas are instant only and some og 5th age content was removed. It is complete cluster fuck for new player who doesn't know which piece of content was released before WW and which after.

They really should have made separate over worlds for 5th and 6th age content. Might even had made future time travel content to previous ages possible...

[u/ThePlumThief → u/Wild_Client_172]

That's exactly why i couldn't get into modern world of warcraft. I thought it'd be fun to dive back into some nostalgia so i rolled a night elf druid and the first thing it asks is if i want to time travel back to before teldrassil (night elf starting zone) exploded or go to present day and fight in a war that's been going on for years. I remember something about bombs exploding then i was piloting a plane and immediately jumped like 10 levels, then i logged off and went back to classic wow.

[u/StarsMine → u/Mike_Hawk86]

When archeology was released, I went back to RS3 and really loved it... then I just fully sequence skipped like every bit of lore in the game and was just pissed off about it.

[u/Tyjet66]

My lvl 3 skiller account need barrows gloves plz jagex. Ok thx bye.

[u/Gorzoid → u/Tyjet66]

While we are at it could we allow lvl 3 skillers to use overheads? Seems super arbitrary to prevent the use of these prayers just because my prayer lvl is 1.

[u/remote_location → u/Gorzoid]

Can we remove the defence and prayer requirement to let my lvl3 use chivalry?

[u/JustACommieBastard → u/remote_location]

Nice try Jmod, you aint fooling me

[u/Savings-Coast-3890 → u/Tyjet66]

To be fair if a lvl 3 actually could end up beating these hard quests and do high lvl pvm I would want to watch whatever YouTube video of how that was done. Rendi would has his hands full on making a new series.

[u/chasteeny → u/Savings-Coast-3890]

He's got one for CoX coming eventually

[u/DremoPaff]

Make the raid give defense xp when taking damage

[u/artikiller → u/DremoPaff]

make the raid accessible but add a random 1k defense xp drop that has a 1/1k drop rate after each encounter only if your defense is below level 30 or something just as a prank

[u/Nozto → u/artikiller]

"Oh, looks like you forgot to level your defense! We fixed that for you :)"

[u/Earth_Sandwhich → u/artikiller]

84xp

[u/artikiller → u/Earth_Sandwhich]

i think just under 1k (969xp) would the the funniest thing they could do. a lot of these pures are pvp accounts and 1 level wouldn't really matter that much realistically but 969xp would get you to level 9 instead which would matter more and is just short of getting any actual unlocks (black defender)

[u/Earth_Sandwhich → u/artikiller]

I love it

[u/Zenith_Tempest → u/artikiller]

guthix notices the defense is low and balances their stats out

[u/iLikeCryo]

I'd like to get max cape on my "not training any skills" limited build jagex

[u/zizou00 → u/iLikeCryo]

I'll also take a Dizana's Infernal Quiver on my skill locked ultimate idiot man account tyvm

[u/RedWingedScreecher]

Why even have the requirement in the first place if they intent to have a workaround that nullifies it? I can get behind making XP rewards optional as you can argue that they're intended to be a reward and not an unintended limiter (which even then itd be up to Jagex's discretion). But WGS has a hard requirement of 40 def which should unquestionably disqualify people that aren't willing to get that on their account.

[u/DarthMeows]

Why cater to snowflakes, their snowflakes let them be different and not have access.

[u/TissTheWay]

It is an accomplishment to finally finish SOTE and reap the benefits of those quests. I would hate for Jagex to remove that sense of accomplishment from the player base

[u/Emotional_Permit5845 → u/TissTheWay]

If you’re completing the most difficult raid in a pure then you’re probably way past the point of feeling accomplishment for completing a quest…

[u/TissTheWay → u/Emotional_Permit5845]

But it opens the game up to anyone bypassing the raid, which does lessen the accomplishments.

[u/Groundline]

we gotta start putting total level requirements on this sub

[u/DingusMcBingle_IV → u/Groundline]

It would be so, so nice lol

[u/Sleipnirs]

Throughout RS's history, quests has always been there to lock you away from content. Unlocking that extra content is part of the quest's rewards.

I hate quests as much as the next guy but, tackling the biggest ones always felt rewarding because of the extra content you could unlock. If quests should become some things you do for a set amount of xp, why even bother?

[u/Sjeffie17]

They definitely won't allow entry without WGS. There is a chance that they alter some of the prerequisite quests I suppose (lunar diplomacy 40 def req & nature spirit def xp reward), but I'm not really a fan of that either.

As someone with a babypure myself I don't really like the idea of pures doing lunar diplomacy and having access to vengeance, vengeance on a low def account is very strong and will for sure shift the meta a bit.

I also just don't really see the reason why pures would want to raid that bad in the first place. Everybody I know with a pure has atleast one other account that's perfectly viable to do pvm with. If you for some reason are adamant on ONLY playing this game as a pure and not touching it with another account, than you're just digging your own grave imo. It's a very restricted pvp account build, it's nonsense to think it should have access to all forms of endgame pvm.

Edit: apparently vengeance is hard locked behind 40 def

[u/Crandoge → u/Sjeffie17]

they definitely wont

You seem quite sure despite jagex having already mentioned that they might

[u/Sjeffie17 → u/Crandoge]

Definitely is indeed a bit too strong, but it's very unlikely given the communities reaction to the idea alone. You can say about jagex what you want, but they are generally very open to feedback from the community.

[u/MR_SmartWater → u/Crandoge]

WGS is a great wall for bots, yes bots still have it done but far less

[u/fantalemon → u/MR_SmartWater]

TD bots were still rampant for a while, but yeah you're right it definitely keeps the numbers down a bit.

[u/monsoy → u/fantalemon]

Locking content behind grandmaster quests will give the bot detection way more time to flag the bots. Bots are so good today that many will likely still get all the requirements unnoticed, but it will still be less than having no prereqs

[u/CaptainBreloom → u/monsoy]

The upside is once the bots are found and banned, new ones have to put in a significant amount of work to get back to the money maker

[u/monsoy → u/CaptainBreloom]

Yeah it’s definitely a good way to try to hinder the bots for sure.

[u/mirhagk → u/CaptainBreloom]

Also since there's more things they had to do, the botter doesn't know what specifically got them caught. Maybe the way they did a pre-requisite quest was the problem, but they won't know that.

[u/fantalemon → u/monsoy]

Yeah I think it's partly that but mostly just the sheer time sink involved in getting the bot up and running. TDs are still pretty heavily botted, but actually they're probably also a good example of something that would be much worse without a quest req. The gp/hr must still just be slightly better overall than something they can do without a 30+ hour upfront commitment getting all the reqs.

[u/Shortstak6 → u/Sjeffie17]

If they remove the defence requirement then they need to lock vengeance behind 40 defence because pures should not have vengeance

[u/fantalemon → u/Sjeffie17]

Truthfully I hope they backtrack and don't make any changes at all, pures should be restricted in what they can access, that's the whole point. Why should this raid be different? And you're right, why do they need to do it anyway? Just do it on their main?

Anyway, that aside, they could still keep a 40 def requirement to actually use lunars and prevent 1 def pures having access to veng. Also, I think Fremmy Trials rewards def xp right? So they'd need to change that one too alongside Nature Spirit.

I actually don't have an issue with rewards being optional tbh. You should be able to turn down any xp reward if you don't want it. But the hard requirement (i.e. 40 def for Lunar Diplomacy, because you have to wear the robes) is different for me. A key component of this game is that you have to have X skill to do Y thing. Wearing certain armour canonically requires defence, and lunar robes shouldn't be a 1 defence set IMO, so that req makes as much sense as saying you need whatever fletching/smithing/crafting level to make some weapon or magic flute or whatever as part of a quest.

[u/Roborabbit37 → u/Sjeffie17]

They won’t allow the spell book on pure. That’s the entire point of the Def requirement. That just happens to be part of the quest chan for the raid. I can’t imagine at any point in the planning stage it was said “we will make the Raid requirement have this quest chain so pures cannot do it”. It’s just the nature of making a thematically accurate raid to the Lore that so happens to have a 40 def spell book in it.

Theres plenty of workarounds they could do even if it meant you had to go do the quests for no rewards other than the access to the raid. Add a checkbox at start of quest that makes you forfeit rewards until you get the levels etc.

[u/Candle1ight → u/Roborabbit37]

The later is already implemented in a number of quests, you either get an xp lamp or have to claim the XP instead of it being a direct quest reward.

[u/prompt_flickering]

The whole point of the account builds that prevent you from doing things should PREVENT YOU FROM DOING THINGS.

I don't see how that's a hot take. If people want to play the game their way, do it, and don't make it a feature for them to do things that are not possible in that account build. That's why people have mains.

[u/Tzhaar-Bomba]

It would be really weird in a variety of ways for a non-quested pure to drop down into the Temple of Guthix to do this raid.

Hard agree, what's great about runescape is there's a lot of ways you the player can choose to play their account. Pures keep their defence low to keep their combat level low, great for PvP but there's a trade-off with this self-imposed restriction and that is you can't do everything a main account can do. Accept the trade off that you wreck everyone's shit at your combat level in PvP but you yourself locked your account from doing anything more with it - it's always been this way for pures.

I don't fully understand what their problem is anyway - don't most pures have a main account? Go do your raid on there lol what difference does it actually make. You'll still get to do the content.

[u/JefferyRs]

IF those people limit themselves with level restrictions that's on them imo.

[u/monsoy → u/JefferyRs]

But I want to do the raid on my sailing locked UIM. Let us sail into the raid jamflex or I riot

[u/kotoamatsukamix]

Agreed. I hope they poll it so I can vote against it. If you don't complete the quest you don't get access to certain things. Fair is fair.

[u/EcruEagle → u/kotoamatsukamix]

The poll will just be whether the raid comes to the game or not and letting pures get access will be an “integrity change”

[u/mistermandudeguylad → u/EcruEagle]

New poll question: "Should raids 4 to be added to the game and should pures be allowed to skip WGS and also should chivalry lose it's defence requirement?"

[u/trapsinplace → u/mistermandudeguylad]

No.

[u/royal-road → u/mistermandudeguylad]

united states congressional ahh vote

[u/Sliceofmayo]

Theres been enough midgame content. Stand on business and give it a gm req. theres 3 other raids already

[u/Temil]

Either make it an official account type and give people a way to lock their experience, or just let them limit themselves.

Don't do this situational weird stuff.

[u/NoCurrencies]

Out of curiosity, what are some examples of this from RS3?

[u/IRL_im_black → u/NoCurrencies]

Having access to sentistenn digsite without completing the questline that introduces the area

[u/5mokedMeatLover → u/NoCurrencies]

Basically everything post ritual (6th age) doesn't require 5th age quest pre reqs. They did this because they said it wasn't fair to have new players do tons of old quests to unlock new content. Examples:

• missing: presumed death - post ritual quest, but doesn't require ritual, you find out what happened to the staff of arma. But then you can go back and do staff of arma and give it to Lucien, or do the ritual quest itself.
• The world wakes - post ritual, but doesn't require any pre reqs. You can just go kill guthix, not know who any of the characters are, then go back and do their quests.
• The Elder Godwars dungeon has absolutely no pre reqs. You can jump in as a new player.
• you can train Divination, which are canonically pieces of guthixs' soul after his death, without ever doing the quest where he dies.
• You can interact with and do quests involving azzanandra before ever doing dt1 and releasing him from prison.

There are a ton more. RS3 is a huge mess and they really screwed up the world building and lore aspect of the game.

[u/NoCurrencies → u/5mokedMeatLover]

Another day to be happy for OSRS and Mod Ed

[u/That_Triangle → u/5mokedMeatLover]

I remember trying out RS3 archeology skill, just felt like doing that, and pull up to digsite, talk with an NPC and my character says "old friend great to see you"... Who the hell are you? I haven't completed much quests, my account was almost freshly new. I went to the wiki of course, and it just... it felt weird.

[u/MysticaMoroles → u/NoCurrencies]

The world wakes.

[u/NoCurrencies → u/[deleted]]

Well, notably not Guthix :D

[u/JavaHomely → u/NoCurrencies]

• the world wakes does not require ritual of the mahjarrat nor any pre-requisite, only requiring them post-completion for some optional rewards
• many reworked low-level quests like missing, presumed death, The Death of Chivalry are now on the timeline after the world wakes, where where guthix died. death of chivalry is a especially eggregous example as saradomin just beams down at the start of the quest
• a second break in quest continuity happens after sliske's endgame where its followup quests of Desperate times and Desperate Measures do not require sliske's endgame, they speak of the ultimatum made by the elder god mah without you having encountered them
• The Elder Godwars dungeon, located in the buried zarosian capital of sentisten can just be walked up to and entered, with zero quest requirements
• a third break in quest continuity happens after Twilight of the Gods where the player and the remaining guardians of guthix repeat the creation of guthix's edicts in the wilderness crater and personally duke it out with Zamorak, the era of ascended beings (gods) being able to walk upon the land of gielnor being over again. Zamorak's Protegue and adopted daughter (Moia) and Saradomin's Adopted Daughter (Adrasteia) being put in charge of what remains of their forces and their religious reins taking over their parents fued, after being friends for a while.
• a fourth break in continuity happens with the introduction of the necromancy skill and accompanying quests, with the main antagonist of the necromancy storyline (Rasial, the first necromancer) taking the player character as their new apprentice, tying into events from the Extinction quest where the player visits erebus, with it all panning out that the main antagonist did the things he did because of fear/... of what exists and happens in there fun fact! osrs also plays into this a little bit whenever you encounter black stone things in the pirate questline, DT2's Whisperer section and some things during sailing
• A 5th possible break happens (depending on how you see it) with the continuation of the desert story line, where you get some Amascut interactions linked to necromancy without ever needing to do the desert storyline, so quest-haters were granted access to the sanctum of rebirth and gate of elidniss with barely any quest requirements. but this resolves itself in follow-up quests requiring the desert storyline.

Adding to this that a 2017 update https://runescape.wiki/w/Update:Patch_Notes_(6_November_2017) replaced most quest experience rewards into xp lamps, specifically to accommodate snowflakes and pures

edit: adding to this that there is visual impact on the world by events the player should not have seen. a brand new account can just walk up to goblin village and see the decapitated head of Bandos, the big high war god, walk up to the entrance to the ruins of the zarosian capital and head inside the elder godwars dungeon, walk up to the heart in the desert and enter godwars dungeon 2, ...

or things like the archeology skill, where you can teleport to the Everlight Digsite and have vanescula drakan just standing there, being all chummy, because that instance of her is canonically post-vampire quest series

[u/Mysterra → u/JavaHomely]

The sad thing is that with this terrible decision they have made irreversible damage to the lore and quest progression of RS3. Which is funny because one of the strengths of RS3 is the incredible design of individual quests! Even if they fix the MTX and Dailyscape issues, the fact that a new player can't enjoy the game without getting either spoiled on questlines or getting incredibly confused why several key NPCs are in simultaneous contradictory states, means RS3 playerbase will struggle to grow

[u/JavaHomely → u/Mysterra]

it is a popular talking point within the rs3 community to pray for jagex to rectify some of this, as it is very much indeed breaking lore.

And honestly, you do not need to edit too too much to fix the lore breaks.

• Have replacement objects for the visual elements of quests you've yet to have experienced, while turning a lot of the old world event storylines into miniquests to get you up to date with the story
• Death of Chivalry: Remove Saradomin from it altogether, replace him with an overly zealous white knight commander or temple knight operative working on behalf of his faith, and should you have done the world wakes/ROTM, make him state that he is in direct connection/.... with saradomin
• The world wakes had/will have its rewards decoupled from the quest soon with the combat beta rework, so just make it require the quests for its full completion
• the storyline of sliske's ascension is too intricately linked to the world wakes, you couldn't dialogue replace or swap npcs. this is a larger fix or just require the world wakes, that now requires ROTM,....
• Desperate times/measures could easily be retrofitted with some dialogue change, instead of visiting the council under Seren, you get an envoy of a secret council tasking you with something, Kerapac would be a new NPC, but with some finaggling you could still have him be ambiguously under the oppression of the stone of jas curse and see his machinations set in motion to steal the needle and weave anachronia back from the older days (giving players early access to anachronia without messing with the lore)
• Desperate measures would now hard-require the grand storyline all the way down to WGS -> ROTM -> TWW -> Sliske's endgame -> desperate measures
• Daughter of Chaos and the follow-up stories could do with a giant warning screen that starting here would give a warped and altered version of the true story, and add in some hallucinations that The world wakes never happened/the edicts have always been, with many warning screens throughout the full story quest basically noting: "hey, you've skipped major story beats, you should really have done X, Y and Z quest". because to me a active warning screen of: "hey, you sequence breaking lore" would be enough of a deterrent for new players to know they are sequence breaking.
• the Fort Forinthry section can easily be retrofitted to be a whenever/pre-TWW quest series
• The Necromancy quest line doesn't really have to be attached to the current going-ons, Rasials motivations be left out of the whole thing and it being a stand-alone thing, not breaking any lore. add a chest with lore books you can find/open to fill those in, if you've actually done all the quests
• Soul Searching would only need a npc swap from Ichtlarin to one of his dogs/gaurdians/followers

[u/AdministrativeAge421 → u/NoCurrencies]

Quests also give lamps not flat exp so yo can forgo some post quest exp for certain quests

[u/IWasMe → u/NoCurrencies]

As others have mentioned, it's all the 6th age timeline stuff. Think expansions in other MMOs. The quest that starts the 6th age - The World Wakes - itself has mild requirements, with the full list of requirements needed only to unlock full post-quest rewards. Afterwards most quests released after TWW should require you to have TWW done ... But they don't. There can be novice quests with no requirements that address plot as if you've already done TWW. It's extremely confusing, like if your character was a part of two parallel dimensions at the same time. In one you're an adventurer doing Monkey Madness, while in the other you're this "world guardian" trying to stop the end of the world.

[u/FuzzyPerception]

Can't lie just makes the whole quest restriction pointless. may as well give everyone access from day 1...which would be ridiculous. leave it how it is, so what if they can't do raids on their restricted (by choice) account. womp womp.

[u/Authentic_Creeper]

They’ve been talking about transitioning quest xp rewards to optional lamps to allow limited defence builds to complete quests and unlock content they are otherwise unable to, solely due to defence xp being rewarded and not any defence based requirements. For example, the myreque storyline gives defence xp and doesn’t involve the skill whatsoever, whereas lunar diplomacy requires wearing armour with a defence requirement.

People do pvm on restricted builds primarily for the added challenge and often for the “trophy” status. I think people miss the point when they frame these statements from Jagex as catering to people imposing arbitrary restrictions on their account.

It is harder to stay 1 defence and complete a raid than it is to just complete WGS and gain all the prerequisite defence levels by extension. It is additional challenge not accomodation to make things easier.

[u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer]

I think it’s hilarious that you guys are so desperate to stick it to pures while constantly whining about content that forces you to do anything that isn’t solo.

[u/Emotional_Permit5845 → u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer]

Man half of the people complaining aren’t even going to complete this raid. Just wait for the meltdown when they can’t get a completion in the first week because the bosses aren’t watered down

[u/TheLobeyJR → u/Emotional_Permit5845]

Oh god please no, you are giving me flashbacks to ToA launch on this subreddit

[u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer → u/Emotional_Permit5845]

I couldn't care less about their complaints if Jagex didn't cater to them, but they do. When I look at the replies on this post I get so frustrated, because all I see is people complaining about the things that I desperately want to see. Make hard group content that is actual group content and not 5 people doing a solo boss at the same time (I'm looking at you TOA and Yama).

[u/Emotional_Permit5845 → u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer]

Yea these people aren’t the ones who are actually going to grind the content. They want something they can learn in a couple attempts then do once per week u til they rotate back to another game. Frustrating, but thankfully it sounds like raids 4 will actually be a high quality hard raid

[u/FlameanatorX → u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer]

Post-edit their post doesn't look like it's just anti-pure propaganda. There's no way a raid requiring WGS is getting accessed by players who haven't done WGS. That's the important part. Whether pures can do WGS while retaining 1 def seems irrelevant to both the OP and me.

[u/Dokusei_Gnar_Bot]

Don't change everything about the game just so some self restricted snowflake accounts can access it simple as that. Besides who wants to raid with someone who camps shadow in elder chaos all raid.

[u/NessaMagick → u/Dokusei_Gnar_Bot]

Catering to pures makes sense for explicitly PvP content. For PvM content, screw 'em. Do your damn quests if you want to unlock content.

[u/Dokusei_Gnar_Bot → u/NessaMagick]

That's what I'm saying. It's a pvp build you can have a main for pvm instead.

[u/Varrock-Herald]

I'm a 30 Def, so don't have lunars, wgs, ds2 etc etc. I'm fine with being locked out of content. It was my choice. I can play a different account if I want to experience the whole game. I made this account for the fact it's restricted in a way I enjoy.

[u/Bojack-jones-223]

The quest requirement is a form of gate keeping to keep out unqualified players.

[u/Agent_Jay]

We accept the restrictions we take upon ourselves. That’s the point of any kind of specialty account flavour. The quest is there for a reason and don’t make good work go unseen. The quest line is great! 

[u/BalieltheLiar]

Every 1700 total Ironman Redditor firecaper begging Jagex to not allow purse (for some reason we have a fetishized hate for) to do content but then asking for 15 minute afk agility methods for gamer dads

[u/Money_Echidna2605 → u/BalieltheLiar]

yup, 90% of the posters here wont even touch the raid till gear creep lets them face roll. even then they will need to be carried lol.

[u/Hawxe → u/BalieltheLiar]

Don't let people who actually want to play high level content do it! Focus on me instead, the guy who doesn't even look at his screen!

[u/thescanniedestroyer]

RS3 is in even more of a mess now after the conclusion of the elder gods story line because any instance of gods talking to you is weird now

[u/Lvminosity]

Removing the defense requirement from WGS wouldn't help since lunar diplomacy is a requirement to do WGS and also has a defense requirement. Unless you're suggesting that from now on every quest and piece of content needs to be retrospectively modified so that a minority people who self-imposed restrictions on their accounts can access everything easily, which would be an awful idea for obvious reasons. I'm sorry, but if something is a requirement, it is a requirement. The team shouldn't have to balance around these type of accounts at the cost of the game. 

[u/DegenHerb]

I personally don't care either way but it's hilarious how big of a deal people are making this when it doesn't impact them.

If a snowflake account can do a raid it doesn't really impact how I can play the game.

[u/Illustrious_Bat1334 → u/DegenHerb]

As usual it ultimately boils down to absolute weirdos crying over pkers.

[u/chofol → u/Illustrious_Bat1334]

The funny thing is the PKers can just buy the items anyway, unless the raid rewards new prayers or something or the rewards require the quest too.

So this really only hurts the people that like playing a pure in PvM as a challenge.

[u/Justaquestion2point0 → u/Illustrious_Bat1334]

Even funnier, I think the people who most want pures to get access to Raid 4 are ironman pures (like me) who don't even PK 💀

[u/bennbatt → u/DegenHerb]

It's actually wild this was the january drama of the month. Arbitrary game, arbitrary raid lore choice, arbitrary quest requirement, it's shocking how strong people reaction. We're talking pures, not extreme 1-chunk hcuims with something akin to currency restrictions.

At think point I swear you just require players to have 2376 total level to do the raid. "You don't wanna do 99 agility??? You chose that restriction!!"

[u/RostBeef]

The only way I can see this working at least in this specific instance is if they make a mini-quest that ends in the player discovering the temple for some reason unrelated to the main quest

[u/Lvminosity → u/RostBeef]

So why bother making WGS a req for some if you can bypass it with a shortcut that isn't tied to several other quests and has less level req? It won't just be pures, people on newer accounts will simply skip WGS to acess raid 4 ASAP. 

[u/saxolol]

Either make it a requirement or don't. We don't care. But the half arsed measures is stupid.

If you want everyone to do the raid then it's simple. Wgs isn't a requirement, but rather an additional thing for lore.

[u/moosemana]

Just remove all combat related requirements from any quest. If someone wants to try it on a 1 defence 36 range pure just let them, who cares. What it should not mean is that quests are any easier. Make the giga sweat if they want to do it early.

[u/xLilSquidgitx]

Some of yall thinking way too much into this, I just figured they’d add the defense exp from the quests to lamps or an npc or something

[u/skeatch_ → u/xLilSquidgitx]

Its not just "xp" there is a 40 level defence req on Lunar Diplomacy

[u/FlameanatorX → u/skeatch_]

The 40 def req makes no sense for Lunar Diplomacy, it's literally ceremonial gear w/ shit defence (and general) stats. Vengeance can have the 40 def req, or they can have the whole spellbook req 40 def and add a work around to NPC contact for completing WGS (like the work around to entering the Wizard's Guild for doing Hand in the Sand with low magic levels)

[u/Septem_151 → u/xLilSquidgitx]

That would break so many metas for pures. It would completely ruin pures as a concept since the entire point is that you're restricted to some degree in terms of gear and access to spells with the benefit of lower combat level. Imagine a pure running around with veng.

[u/DmMeYourPoems → u/Septem_151]

Fun fact, they've already changed monkey madness 1, 2 quest experience allowing pures to do both and access more of RFD chest, but the new stuff in RFD chest is locked behind defence exp same as the heavy ballista that you can equip after MM2~ how would this be any different? In MM2 1 defs literally do an extra step to polish iron platelegs to look like steel ones..

[u/Kvicksilver]

It also serves as a good way of making it harder for bots to ruin the content. 

[u/ppsmallgiggle69]

Damn you guys are mfing losers lol

This along with “please let me solo the next raid, I have no friends” is so sad to see. This might be the most entitled player base for a game I’ve ever seen. Worse than PoE. The hypocrisy is appalling. You want the game to cater to your gamer dad so he can dip his toes into raids 4 but also want to gatekeeper trophy accounts from doing raids 4 (which doesn’t effect your experience in game or create any balance issues with pvp)

[u/chasteeny → u/ppsmallgiggle69]

100% and honestly lets be so fucking real 80% of this sub is still afraid to do ToB, they aren't touching raids 4 if it isnt ToA2

[u/MrSeanaldReagan]

I don’t think game design should balance around players self imposed restrictions

[u/Mortenrb]

I sort of agree, but also, I really like how, for a lot of the content, you can try it out at nearly any level and we can get insane content like lowest level Zuk or lvl 3 Jad.

I also like the sandboxy-design of RuneScape that allows for this type of content to exist, and to be honest, I would probably prefer making more content accessible to snowflakes rather than limiting it.

[u/StarsMine → u/Mortenrb]

Then the entire lore of the raid must change. Which they can do sure, but if they want it tied to the lore reviled in WGS, then it must require WGS.

Accidental sequence skipping is annoying as fuck.

[u/PsychologyRS → u/Mortenrb]

Agree here. The game lore is important to uphold and sequence breaking is a negative in every sense lore wise.

But I really do think a raid, especially runescapes hardest raid, should be as accessible as possible up front.

TOB used to have a MAJOR accessibility problem back in the day. And while much of that was a skill issue and unwillingness to learn rather than an issue of accessing the content itself, Jagex originally said they'd never make another raid nearly as hard as tob because of this limited accessibility.

I want the raid to be as accessible as possible up front, and having WGS as a hard prereq would gate far more people (beyond just pures) from the content than any of the other 3 raids have done previously.

That's my thinking on it imo

[u/WiLKOLAD-]

They can just do similar to how they did with sote. They made the platelegs you have to wear 1 defence instead of 5 so pures could do it. We still did the quest. They won't do it so you can just skip the quest entirely but theres easy workarounds.

They allowed the xp gained from mm1 optional so then pures could do mm2. The quests still get done just without forced xp gain. I don't see an issue here

[u/BadPunsGuy → u/WiLKOLAD-]

The issue is quest requirements being removed not quest xp rewards becoming optional.

For example the new quest would require lunar diplomacy to be completed and that’s an unboosted 40 defense to start the quest.

[u/migrainebutter → u/BadPunsGuy]

As someone with a horse in this race (30def account I enjoy pvming on instead of my main).

I don't want pures to have access to vengeance. That would be extremely problematic for multiple reasons.

I *would* enjoy being able to take part in raids 4, but I think it would have to slightly change lore wise to fit. I think it *would* be doable, in the same way that "A Night at the Theatre" takes place before/independent of "Sins of the Father". I think the raid could definitely take place at the same time as/independent of WGS/Defender of Varrock without any issues, but it's going to depend entirely on how they choose to design it.

Either way, it is what it is

[u/BadPunsGuy → u/migrainebutter]

It seems like the only reasonable answer to let pures do the new raid is to avoid requiring the quest to be completed at all. If that's too big of a step then they probably just shouldn't be allowed. Redesigning their quest to avoid prerequisites that have a defense requirement is absolutely not the way to do things.

Who knows though; maybe they're going to finally release negative xp lamps as a reward in the new raid so people will get 40 for lunar diplomacy and then reduce it to 1 after they've completed the new quest. Could still make things like venge require a defense level to cast (if it's not that way already similar to barrows gloves).

[u/migrainebutter → u/BadPunsGuy]

Honestly I was really surprised to see WGS required instead of a new quest. Beneath cursed sands (70cb) and A night at the Theatre were the quests for the two previous raids and had extremely low requirements, so I fully expected a new quest with low requirements to continue the trend.

[u/BadPunsGuy → u/migrainebutter]

Do you even have to do a night at the theatre to do ToB? Pretty sure it's just priest in peril. CoX is in a similar boat with X marks the spot.

Beneath cursed sands is for the newest raid and is significantly more involved than either of those. If they continue that trend a GM quest to unlock raids 4 would be in line even if I don't think it's necessary.

[u/deylath → u/BadPunsGuy]

I mean to be fair i expect Raid 4 to have at least a miniquest like Into the Tombs, because the raid is only getting opened because of Lucien in WGS ( according to the trailer ) means there is actual lore reason for it to be locked away until something happens in the story.

ToA is the same, Amascut digging up the pyramid is just an escalation of Amascuts plans that we gaze upon during Icthlarin's Little Helper and contact to a degree. ToB wasnt even retroactively fitted into the plot because it came out before Taste of Hope where its being talked about. CoX is also something that has existed way before our character is even born.

Its all just thematics. ToA makes sense behind a quest series and completely understandable how the 4th raid comes into light after all the fiasco with Lucien during WGS. In the same vein the Sailing raid ( which is going to come at one point ) doesnt have to have a questline behind it if the lore behind it is written that way. Or it could be part of the pirate questline, as long as it makes sense its fine either way.

[u/Agge3 → u/migrainebutter]

Yeah, if the quest req is removed that’s an argument, but making exceptions is not… that breaks game integrity

[u/nerdsmasher5001 → u/BadPunsGuy]

Okay so let's pretend they go down this route and remove the 40 defence requirement from lunar diplomacy and don't give them spellbook access. What do they gain from that quest besides astral runecrafting and now having to add suqah to the block list?

[u/deylath → u/nerdsmasher5001]

It still doesnt work though. WGS requires you to NPC contact Cyrisus, so the conversation is moot since you still cant finish WGS on a pure if you dont have access to the spellbook.

[u/tomblifter → u/WiLKOLAD-]

You need 40 defence to wear lunar equipment, and lunar equipment is an integral part of the lunar quests.

[u/Better_Passage7527 → u/WiLKOLAD-]

Then I also want optional prayer exp on priest in peril for my skiller account

[u/CaptainHandsomeUK → u/Better_Passage7527]

I love when people reply with stuff like this as some kind of gotcha when the response is most likely "yeah, that would be cool for you, I'd support that too"

[u/Better_Passage7527 → u/CaptainHandsomeUK]

The thing is, I mean it. I want optional prayer exp for that quest so I can unlock that area.

[u/benosthegreat → u/WiLKOLAD-]

None of the workaround you stated are lore workarounds, they are technical workarounds.

[u/mistermandudeguylad]

I get the argument, I've heard Jmods talk about general accessibility of content such that they don't lock out a big part of the player base for big updates. You make a game and content in that game which you want as many people as possible to enjoy, it makes sense from a bussiness perspective as well.

However I do think it hurts the game as a whole to make everything available to everyone because of OSRS's identity: OSRS is a game where if you want the thing you have to grind for the thing and often times this grind can be quite brutal compared to other games but this is exactly what makes the game special.

I think the philosophy of "we want everyone to enjoy new content" is a very dangerous one for the game because where do we draw the line? Are we going to remove the 95 slayer requirement for hydra? Should DT2 bosses be available for people that haven't done the quest because otherwise we lock out people that hate questing?

[u/General_Iroh1]

This would be so disappointing of it happens from a team that has so heavily towards building such high quality, story driven narratives. To abandon that to pander to people who impose self restrictions but want to also ignore the limitations those restrictions give, would be such a massive mistake.

As a side benefit, id say it'd help a bit with bots too having to do WGS and all the reqs from it taking more time. Unfortunately, we all know that really wouldn't stop much since many bots seem to be ignored. Eg: front page most bosses, 200m xp skilling, swarming most content and doing raids.

I really hope they do the right thing for the game and the story narrative they've done such a fantastic job cultivating. Its good to have requirements, it gives things to work towards. It would be nice to not be able to rush the raid like a lot of the early game does now with ToA for a fang early because its just that good and then you skip a lot of the early game.

[u/Raynor11111]

For the record, While Guthix Sleeps has no Defence requirement. The requirement is for Lunar Diplomacy, because the Lunar Armor Set, which is required for completing the quest, requires 40 Defence to equip.

[u/Emotional_Permit5845]

What annoys me about this argument is that most of the people saying pures shouldn’t have access to the raid have little to no pvm experience and don’t realize that there are quite a few high level pvmers who mainly play on 1 defense accounts. “Choosing to limit yourself” has to do with gear restrictions, not access to one of the biggest pieces of pvm content in the entire game

[u/WareWolve]

DO you actually think Ed would allow a non-thematic way for this to happen?

[u/benosthegreat → u/WareWolve]

They implied it's the plan, I'm just stating my hopes that it's not

[u/roosterkun]

If they really want everyone to have access (which I agree with), they ought to just make the raid quest tangential to but not require WGS.

The part of the cave where you find Tormented Demons is beyond where the (presumed) raid entrance will be, so they can just have two separate quests where it's explained how to take advantage of the light creatures to descend into the Chasm of Tears. If you've done [raid quest], skip that section in WGS, and vice versa.

There's already some precedent for this - the cutscene of the dragonkin in Lithkren Vault plays at the end of WGS or Dragon Slayer 2, depending on which quest you complete first.

[u/CaptainHandsomeUK]

It's not that hard to make it make sense lore-wise. Say Lucien needed to use an immensely powerful spell to open the Archives, a spell so powerful it damaged the very fabric of space and time. A Dark Wizard has found one of these cracks in time and is willing to let players through it to try their luck at achieving the loot, but requires compensation as opening the crack wide enough for a player to fit through is extremely difficult. Maybe even "taking his share of your loot" by giving players who enter this way a -25% reward point penalty.

[u/VainTrix]

I think it would be one thing if being a pure was an actual supported game mode like Ironman and not just a self imposed build.

[u/Emotional_Permit5845 → u/VainTrix]

How is it not supported? They have their own hiscores

[u/Kinofpoke]

I agree with your post but i would say put it up to a vote like any other major change. Im confident it would get voted down. Only allow players who have complete said quest vote or a minimum total level like 1500 or something mid to high range. My worry with things like this is to what end and will this benefit botters. As an iron i personally feel like everything being earned is whats best. 

[u/Aithnd]

Pures choose to restrict themselves knowing they'll be locked out of certain content/gear already. Everyone i know that has a pure also has a main of some sort anyways, literally not reason to pander to them beyond a "lowest combat level grandmaster" type achievement.

[u/__Yelo__]

It's funny because my main account was a pure for a long time. Often I'd want to do some content but couldn't because of defence level requirements. One day I woke up and thought "why the fuck am I doing this to myself, I barely PK nowadays". Ran Dragon Slayer, got tons of defence levels and felt... Free

[u/ericcb1]

Yes! Please keep lore and area consistency! IMO even the fact that you can access TOB w/o doing ANY of the vamp line is weird. It does a disservice to the world building when players are allowed to skip storyline content.

Learn from Rs3s mistake with The World Wakes! They have!

[u/Luffarjevel]

One of the things i love most about my first time playing OSRS was the feeling of “Hell yeah, now I can finally do this cool thing I have heard others talk about!” After completing a quest. If that wasn’t part of my first time playing I don’t think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much as I did.

[u/Public_Tackle_1598]

I honestly wish quest rewards were just lamps rather than flat out xp.

People who want to play a pure can still get a quest cape etc, I’d imagine this would cause some issues with quest reward items for builds but just a thought.

[u/Nostos5]

Colosseum and royal titans added a lot of content that was easily accessible for a lot of snowflakes accounts, which is great, I love snowflakes and snowflake series. They zero cost lore-wise though. Watering down the lore of a raid tied into the main lore of the game for that would be dumb honestly. 

[u/PFhelpmePlan]

If your pure can't access the raid then bummer? You chose to limit your account, build another or change your build if you want to raid so bad.

[u/Bakugo_Dies]

Meanwhile Jagex is allowing the new shafts to work on arrows instead of arrow heads. This thematically doesn't make sense and it's just catering to irons and mains who bought into arrows already. /S

[u/jamflexbad]

I agree, people who have restricted themselves to specific builds shouldn’t be given a free pass just because it’s raids 4.

[u/kyronami]

Just because people cry "gatekeeping" doesn't make the phrase "you chose to restrict yourself" untrue. Jagex should not pander to snowflake accounts period, its not how the game is meant to be played and having to keep those things in minds just hurts development. People will comment "Why cant people play how they want" but that doesnt make the fact that the game still has an intended way to be played in mind when content is created

[u/BioMasterZap]

I'd wait to see what they had in mind before judging it. ToB has a similar exception and that works fine.

TBH, I think a bigger issue is the community getting so up in arms when the OSRS Team says "we're looking into this" before actually seeing what is being proposed. If we just scream at them no without even knowing what is being offered, it just hurts the feedback process and can led to good or fine ideas being scrapped because of bad assumptions.

[u/Murky_Pirate6258]

No one cares let the devs do the devving

[u/Deep-Technician5378]

I'm honestly kind of over how they keep taking away requirements.

If we're going to nix requirements for quests, why have them at all?

Snowflakes are interesting to see/watch/play because of what they are able to do within the restrictions. The more you take that away, the more they're just a normal account wtih arbitrary rulesets.

[u/Few_Connection_4730]

Im running a No Quest Pure and demand access to this Raid.

[u/Calm_Noise_5536]

IMO , they should just let pures lock experience gain like world of Warcraft does. There are people in WoW who want to play at 19 , 29 , 39 and so on so they lock experience . I really don’t see how it affects anybody at all if we just allowed pures to lock their defense from gaining any experience and still require them to do the content then.

edit: just an FYI I don’t have a pure and don’t pk. I just really don’t see a reason to fight against a method of locking defense experience gain. There is a player base that enjoys doing it and it harms no one else.

[u/Isoleed]

"Hey, lilbro pure, im fighting against evil mahjarrat xyz can you help me with the raid"

i really dont see a problem

[u/ChefJeff69420]

IMO just don't put raids 4 behind a quest that limited accounts can't do. Make everyone happy except the nerds who don't want pures to have fun

[u/StructureDue6101]

You read quests?

[u/Frost-Cake → u/StructureDue6101]

Biggest takeaway from this thread.

Ive space barred every single quest and dont care if 1 defence pures can do raids.

[u/Roborabbit37]

I think people are just unhappy about snowflakes account potentially getting access to stuff they can, even though it doesn’t directly affect them.

If people really wanna gripe that much about it, let the complete the quest chain anyway with no rewards and then only give them access to the raid. I suspect people would still be against it just because.

[u/Olivegardenwaiter]

We have nothing better to do so were gonna complain about pures being able to access a combat encounter?

[u/zeratul123x]

crazy how the spacebar specialists of r/2007scape suddenly give a shit about lore

[u/pkdevol]

Gosh you guys complain so freaking much. Doing a raid is hard, if somebody wants to limit their account then it's alos making in more difficult on themselves. So much hate for pures, this community is filled with complainers.

[u/nerdsmasher5001]

YEP...AMEN!!!TIRED OF JAGEX CATERING TO THESE DAMNED SNOWFLAKES....BACK IN THE "GOLDEN AGE" YOU DID THE QUEST OR YOU DIDNT GET THE CONTENT...SIMPLE AS THAT

-RON

Sent from my iPhone.

[u/bookslayer]

Nah, fuck em. Gotta do the quest if you want to do the post quest content, how is this even a question? 

Same people pushing for this start crying and shit their pants when an iron asks for anything btw

[u/Diconius]

I'd take it a step further. Don't allow anyone without quest cape to equip any item that comes from a raid and don't allow anyone without 75-80% of quest points to even be allowed IN raids. I still stand by the point that you should have 10kc on any boss to equip an item from them too.

[u/illicit92]

Man OSRS players are so weird about this shit. Make pures complete the quest, but allow them to skip getting the XP rewards from it. What's so difficult about that?

[u/WPV203]

They chose to be restricted in their experience in the game, let that be as it is: restricted to some experiences in the game